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why Sorylian lose so big all the time?

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Turned out he was right.

Well, the battleship got +1 move and reinforced broadsides, more of a pity-gift than proper upgrade, but apparently it turned a dead rat into a good ship, so what do I know :P On the other side, I recall  some of the suggestions, and what they were was "dindrenzi, but with the same good broadsides plz". Are the sorylian ships really so awful that each and every one has to get an upgrade or else you have no chance at winning? At some point you have to take a step back and ask when does upgrading poor stats end and padding them to make up for poor tactics start?

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Hardly. The argument was that the Sorylian BB was completely useless, which was and is bs. It got some minor tweaks (+1 move the most notable) is all.

Which I think was the initial problem in the Sorylian forums. Excessive negativity, a near absolute refusal to see anything good about them, and hyperbole about their issues (instead of the far more constructive threads in other forums) rubbed a lot of other people the wrong way too. Not everyone, or even most. But the loudest voices here for too long did nothing but complain that the faction didn't work the way they wanted it to, instead of figuring out how to make it work or acknowledge any other point of view.

I also don't mind other points of view, but this thread (from the title on) has an awful lot of historical baggage attached. I'd be perfectly happy to see it die.

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Well, the battleship got +1 move and reinforced broadsides, more of a pity-gift than proper upgrade, but apparently it turned a dead rat into a good ship, so what do I know :P On the other side, I recall  some of the suggestions, and what they were was "dindrenzi, but with the same good broadsides plz". Are the sorylian ships really so awful that each and every one has to get an upgrade or else you have no chance at winning? At some point you have to take a step back and ask when does upgrading poor stats end and padding them to make up for poor tactics start?

To me the lizards have good tier 2 and tier 3 ships. The larges need a little work.

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See, the problem is, those ideas are actually counter-productive. There's a stark difference between how the relthoza and sorylian players, at least on this site, handled the issue of being "subpar". With relthoza, you saw  a lot of "how to use this" threads and now they have a respectable warlog after the first month or two of hiccups. Sorylian side instead has..this. There have been some tactics discussed of course, but mostly it's "we need to change this and this and this to be better" wishlisting. Do I think it should be locked? No, I am not a fan of locking threads, but I do think it might foster a deafetist attitude.

 

You're right, the Relthoza forum is... swarmed with fantastic players willing both to use every Squadron at its best and to tell fellow players what conclusions they came to basing on their experience; it's a wonderful place for spider noobs like me  ^_^ .

 

However, I'm no Sorylian player, but I like them a lot; may I humbly suggest to read this thread to those who already didn't? 

 

http://community.spartangames.co.uk/index.php?/topic/10733-sorylian-resurgence/

 

Here, reddwarf wrote one of the best posts I've ever read in a wargaming forum, full of ideas for Sorylian lists and tactics. 

 

Hope it helps. 

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Venter has hit my comment on the head.  This Thread why Sorylian lose so big all the time? needs to die a quick and horrible death.  Sorylians don't lose all the time.  They hare quite capable of facing any force.  They have been doing well in making up for their horrible beginning Battle Log deficit once people stopped whining and started playing to the fleets strengths.  If fully expect that next year's Battle Log will see them right in the mix with the other races.  Then this myth of Sorylian badness can be put to rest and those players having problems can start looking for how to use their fleet to win rather than wish-listing improvements that probably are never going to happen.

 

Even in their darkest hour, the Relthoza players had a better attitude then this thread exhibits.  So let this thread die and use a better one to improve your lot.

 

At least, that's what I wish you would do.

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Venter has hit my comment on the head.  This Thread why Sorylian lose so big all the time? needs to die a quick and horrible death.  Sorylians don't lose all the time.  They hare quite capable of facing any force.  They have been doing well in making up for their horrible beginning Battle Log deficit once people stopped whining and started playing to the fleets strengths.  If fully expect that next year's Battle Log will see them right in the mix with the other races.  Then this myth of Sorylian badness can be put to rest and those players having problems can start looking for how to use their fleet to win rather than wish-listing improvements that probably are never going to happen.

 

Even in their darkest hour, the Relthoza players had a better attitude then this thread exhibits.  So let this thread die and use a better one to improve your lot.

 

At least, that's what I wish you would do.

Ok, that's fair. Sorry for jumping your case earlier.  :)

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They have some of the best in class Tier2 and Tier3 ships. Having weaker Tier1's is that trade off.

 

I actually agree with this sentiment.  If there are new Tier 1s for the lizards I'd want them to be specialized for fighting smaller tiers but still be a poor match for other Tier 1s.  That contrary target selection is something I'd want to preserve.

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I think the Sorylians now have the problems the Directorate had in the 1.5, so they need to hide in terrain to survive long enough to unleash they big guns at RB2. To my gaming experience psycho running into the enemys fleet usually ends badly, specially if your front guns have been nerfed in range efectiveness from early versions of the game, so you can´t damage ships as you close. That´s the main flaw I see. Ship by ship I noticed the following

 

Dreadnought: The DN got more expensive and lost 1 shield (that can be restored). Main changes included its tier 2 weapons turned into primary weapons that lost the capability of killing frigates at RB4, lost the "Lots of Guns" MAR but gained the "protected systems" and an upgrade (Precision strike MAR) that is only effective against cruisers and battlecruisers at RB 1-2, and more upgrades (for a price) to increase its wing capacity and speed, (and AP). As a curiosity it was the only ship in 1.5 that had a "coherence effect": the scatter cannon. To resume this, in V1,5 it could stay at range and kill frigates at distance while becoming a fire magnet and be able to endure the damage at RB 3-4. In V2.0 I think it works as a resillient ship to protect your admiral (you need both the shield and the weapon shieldding) or as a shunt-entry ship (see the BB)

 

Battleship (Falx, Swordbreaker): Its concept always puzzled me. It needs to stay sideways to deliver its main firepower to bear, but needs to close to be able to deliver its main firepower to bear (so it means not staying sideways while closing) The nerf on its front guns at RB 3-4 aggraviated it further (it had 5 AD at RB 4 and 6 AD at RB 3), but I think, overall the ship has gained more than it lost in the change to the new version of the game because the +1 AD to its torpedo systems and the range (and capablities regarding LoS) the torpedoes now have... if you stay sideways towards the enemy. It got cheaper, even if you include the cost for the +1  SH hardpoint it lost during the change to the newer version. I think the best way to use it is shunting it in-between the enemy fleet, preferably in pairs. If you don´t want to use the BB this way, better get a Veydreth BB, that has better range and a more easy-to-use  weapon distribution. Remember, if your admiral is not present because you want to shunt his BB you can use the cards that help you shunting your ships, so you may need another large or let your "sorylian" admiral be a Veydreth one XD (or use a carrier /battelcrusier)

 

Battecrusier: there was no BCR in the old version but I like the capability of adding more SRSs to help sorylians. I hope we get a Battlecarrier soon too :)

 

Carriers: For me the easiest ship to use as it had good front guns (and torpedoes) for its class, and in the new version had been considerably improved. Longer range for torpedoes, better torpedoes, better front guns, and if you upgrade its SH and wing capacity to match the V1.5 stats, there is only a slight (5 Pt) increase in points, plus you can now include cruisers and gunships as acompaniment. I almost always try to include this ship :)

 

Gunship: saw an increase of +15 points on its base cost from previous version but it is because it gained kinetic guns and torpedoes that have much more range (and special rules) than the old version. It also lost 1 AD in its torpedo systems :S but its no longer "fore fixed" I don´t have the gunships yet, but If I had them I would shunt or flank them late in  the battle because they are most efficient once the enemy PD has been reduced. Enemy always try to target them early on because I think they are "terror" (psychological) weapons (forces the enmy to buy escorts & lots of interceptors) lol.

 

Heavy cruiser: never had those guys in my fleet, but it is likely I get the newer models as they will look tougher than my old Skyhammers. They seem to be re-done for the current version (2.0) as it lost the aft-firing torpedoes (lol). In the old version I saw them as a true multi-purpose ship for engaging the enemy at any range (yes it had 4 AD at RB4 per ship plus 5 AD of torpedoes at that RB in an squadron of 4 ships = a decent punch at extreme range against a cruiser) Nowadays it lost that long-range punch and got an extra +1 DR, (followed by a +5 point increase) So it needs to engage the enemy at least at RB 3 to be effective

I think it (overall) has lost capabilities from previous version) and I find them an extremely expensive unit to shunt in-between the enemy fleet to make up for their investment. Use them with lots of cover!

 

Cruiser: ahh. the venerable Skyhammer (and now, the falcata too) big nerf on its front gun (it uses to have 4 AD at RB 3 and +1 AD at RB 2 and 1) that brings it to the same trouble (or dillema) the BB and the heavy cruiser have: close to the enemy at your risk and lose AD, once you get to RB 2, turn sideways, then shoot at  your maximum AD providing you did not got damage or lost a ship in the way.... that or shunt in the face and pray for activating first. :/ At least you don´t need you admiral to be there.

 

Destroyer: Another of my favourite ships. They lost "hidden killer" in favour of the "Ambush" thing, they got kinetics so they got much better range, small tweaks on AD but for good. Need to use them with the new ambush rules, but I think they still are good ship for reducing the enemy's PD defences for your warwolves, they also still make a decent torpedo ship on their own if they survive long enough. (tip: park a carrier near them, preferably with some ceptors) The veydreth offer good options in the form of assault cruisers hidden nearby, The only problem I see is the reduced activations you will have

 

Frigate: they are now slighty slower than in v1.5, but this is because they got heavy armour plating (for a frigate). I played with Directorate in V1.5 and CR 6 on a frigate is BIG. They also lost 1 AD on the broadsides at RB 3 but their kept their AD on the front gun so the frigates did not run into the sorylian "main problem"

with the new rules you can't spam frigates to "out-activate" your opponent, but Sorylians still have a good advantage when using  frigates because the big squadrons (plus the new pack hunter thing),and my instinct tells me that having 15 frigates in your fleet is a good idea.

 

Corvette: Never used them, but the scout MAR combined with the ambush  or a juicy ship to lure to the enemy (carrier with admiral, warwolves, cruiser/heavy cruisers) seems intriging to me :ph34r: Otherwise they work like frigates but are more fragile (still have the difficult target instead of the elusive one) I better would use the veydreth corvettes instead (because the elusive MAR) and better firepower. plus you can have some board control (mines). They come at an increase in cost, however.

 

 

As  a final tip: If you don´t care about using Sorylian-specific cards It would be better using Terquai torpedo cruisers instead of cruisers if you want to circle around the enemy at a good distance and I like more the Terquai DN stats, and also you can always throw an Aegis to the mix. yeah it doesn´t work as it used to be (giving shields to skyhammers in v1.5 was nasty) but you have a kurak TAC card that gives bonuses to shield and another generic card that give another bonus if I remember well, so you can close to the enemy fleet safer.

 

hope it helped ;)

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