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why Sorylian lose so big all the time?

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Reinforced fore or perhaps Retractable shielding covering the scatter weaps?

 

Perhaps we could add 20 attack dice turrets and multi-phasic shields too.

 

Someday...in the far future I'll right up what I had suggested and would have liked the Sorylians to be in 2.0 (as if people are interested but don't burst my ego bubble :P). For now though I think too many cookies might break them. Recent games have shown that they're not bottom tier when handled by a lot of varied players. In fact they have a winning record in their last 20 games and a good/decent avg BL score (though I notice they either massacre their opponents or get massacred)..

 

I can see a few modifications here and there - particularly on a few units (though, in my book, these modifications wouldn't be free) but let's not stack on the pork projects just yet.

 

Zak

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In fact they have a winning record in their last 20 games and a good/decent avg BL score (though I notice they either massacre their opponents or get massacred)..

 

6.6 would actually be leading the battle log averages (small sample size theater still applies, of course).

 

They do seem to be prone to bigger wins/losses than most factions, for whatever reason (my guess is it's range related).  Could be part of why they struggled so badly early--while adjusting to their now much shorter ranges than most other factions they lost heavily.  As players figure out what they DO do well and how to protect them early their still very heavy firepower at short range is starting to tell again.  But you get extremes because if they get hammered too much at range they can go down hard, while if they don't take much damage early they can wipe out opponents hard.

 

Just a theory of mine.

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First, because they usually aren't with the official ships and rules.  Particularly the majority of beta, into things like Marauder testing (even when the Sorylian ships were RAW, as in Marauder tests, the opposing faction wasn't the final stats).

 

Second, because I'm frequently playing both sides.  To really test things you need to play a lot of games, there was only one other player in my area during beta to test with, and we both have full time jobs and married lives.  Lot easier to find time to play against myself on Vassal than it is to get together enough.  And while I do my best to play the fight "fair" even though I know what both sides intend, who knows how good I am at it.  Wouldn't be right to report that RedDwarf (Sorylians) defeated RedDwarf (Corsairs) 10 to 3 :)

 

I did the same thing when Sorylians were being so heavily questioned in the forums after initial release--just pulled up Vassal and played games. 

 

Edit: and for probably understandable reasons, I end up not playing a lot of games that CAN be reported to the War Log.  There's only so much Firestorm time (and honestly, energy) available, and most of mine the last year has gone into testing things.

 

Fair enough, I'd never thought about playing against myself for the purpose of testing before. You know you could spin that into a case of "the only opponent worthy of RedDwarf, was himself". 

 

Also I didn't know that FSA was on Vassal! 

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http://vassalarmada.wordpress.com/

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_xHYdOJkJU4Qzg5bFpzTWx0WUU/edit?usp=sharing

 

The first link is the current site which hasn't been updated in sometime. The second is a somewhat updated version I've been tinkering with, spoiler it hasn't been updated in a while either :/ stupid "work" getting in the way of my life.

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Look at the Sorylian ships.  They do not have Retractable Platings or Reinforced Fore.  Just because it would be nice is no reason to toss a rule on a ship.  If the Sorylian ships need enhancements (I am dubious on this point) they should be appropriate to the ships and fleet.

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http://vassalarmada.wordpress.com/

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_xHYdOJkJU4Qzg5bFpzTWx0WUU/edit?usp=sharing

 

The first link is the current site which hasn't been updated in sometime. The second is a somewhat updated version I've been tinkering with, spoiler it hasn't been updated in a while either :/ stupid "work" getting in the way of my life.

 

Just had a look at it then, really quite cool. 

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Hmm, doesn't the FSA community have someone like Volandum? He ran along the BFG crowd for a while and I never encountered someone who approached the game as mathematical as he did.

Due his pov (powergaming) he could tell quite quickly if a list was bad or good. And tell you what a (in theory) would be a really good list. Good sense of the metagame.

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Look at the Sorylian ships.  They do not have Retractable Platings or Reinforced Fore.  Just because it would be nice is no reason to toss a rule on a ship.  If the Sorylian ships need enhancements (I am dubious on this point) they should be appropriate to the ships and fleet.

Thd dread actually looks like it has retractable plating. My reasoning behind some fore armour is it gives a little more strategy then hope the enemy rolls poorly on your long slow approach.

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Thd dread actually looks like it has retractable plating. My reasoning behind some fore armour is it gives a little more strategy then hope the enemy rolls poorly on your long slow approach.

 

I'm not really seeing it...

 

Besides, I'd hardly call the advance slow.  The Terrans are slow.  Sorylians are coming at you at 9" a turn with the Falx.  Even the Broadsword can get cooking up to 8".  Throw a drives to max on the slowest tier 1 you have, and shove Falcatas down their throat.  You're in fisting range in no time.

 

Don't forget that the FF of a Falcata squadron in RB2 is 15AD...which is more than the Terran cruisers maximum combined AD value in any arc.  If Sorylians were stronger on closing/had a foolproof method of getting into RB2 with all their ships with minimal loss, they'd have no weakness.

 

Getting there isn't the problem, its staying there that the Lizards could maybe use a small buff in.  I'd like reinforced broadsides spread more liberally as an option purely for fluff/theme reasons, and it would certainly help where its needed.

 

The data we have is showing a positive trend.  If we keep discussing tactics and list building strategies, Sorylians will be just fine.

 

Besides, the Warwolf is a better Dindrezi vessel than other Dindrezi vessels.  We're just that ******* awesome.

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That's an average of 6.6  battle log (overall) per game with 11 wins, 2 draws, and 7 losses. I think we're seeing a definite big improvement in their performance overall. They're not entering any sort of god-mode by an stretch of the imagination but that's a pretty good overall score.

 

Actually I checked the reports and the maths are 9 wins, 9 losses and 2 draws which means perfect average.

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Actually I checked the reports and the maths are 9 wins, 9 losses and 2 draws which means perfect average.

 

I checked again and I still count 11 Sorylian wins but it's hard to interpret a few of the results (some players put names near certain scores, most just left to right).  Can you tell me where you're counting 9 (I want to make sure I'm reading it right).

 

-Zak

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I checked again and I still count 11 Sorylian wins but it's hard to interpret a few of the results (some players put names near certain scores, most just left to right).  Can you tell me where you're counting 9 (I want to make sure I'm reading it right).

 

-Zak

Maybe I interpret them wrongly but lets do it battle raport after battle report. Let us designate three indicators W, D, L for respectively wins, draws and loses. We will upadate them after each report:

start: W 0 D 0 L 0

Players: Vechio vs Zrnozaba
Factions: Sorylians vs Rense System Nazi
Battle Log Scores: 11: -3
W 1 D 0 L 0
 
Players: Silurian / Flatlander
Factions: Sorylian / Dindrenzi
Battle Log Scores: 2 / 5
W 1 D 1 L 0
Zagman/Fabricator General
RSN/Sorylians
16/-3 BattleLog
W 1 D 1 L 1
Demomaster vs dmMatt
OSO omnidyne/corsairs vs Sorylians
8 to 11
W 1 D 2 L 1
Players: Uhoh22 vs Kyle-chan
Factions: Dindrenzi vs Sorylians
Score: 8 to 1
W 1 D 2 L 2
Commodore Jones vs Endrasalem
Sorylian vs. Relthoza
Final Battle Log: Sorylian 8/-3 Relthoza
W 2 D 2 L 2
DemoMaster vs Terry
Sorylians vs RSN
12 to 0 BL
W 3 D 2 L 2
Players: DemoMaster vs SeerK
Factions: Sorylians vs RSN
Score: 15 to 10 (Sorylians)
W 4 D 2 L 2
Players: DM_Matt vs Loren (non-forum)
Factions: Sorylians vs Relthoza
Score: 14 to -7 (Sorylians)
W 5 D 2 L 2
Players: Ted (non-forum) vs Tom (non-forum)
Factions: Terrans vs Sorylians
Score: 12 to -2 (Terrans)
W 5 D 2 L 3
Players: Runty / ZKRobi
Factions & Allies: Works Raptor / Sorylian
Battle Log Scores: 1 / 15
W 6 D 2 L 3
Players: Zagman vs Matt F(NonForum)
Factions: RSN vs Sorylians
BattleLog: 13/4
W 6 D 2 L 4
Players: Tom (non-forum) vs SeerK
Factions: Sorylians / RSN
Score: 8 to 0 (Soylians)
W 7 D 2 L 4
Players: DemoMaster vs Ted(non-forum)
Factions: Sorylians / Terrans
Score: 15 to -13 (Sorylians)
W 8 D 2 L 4
Players: Spellduckwrong vs DM_Matt
Factions: Relthoza / Sorylians
Score: 15 to -5 (Relthoza)
W 8 D 2 L 5
Players: SMD_Vogrin vs DemoMaster
Factions: Directorate vs Sorylians
Score: 15 to -4 (Directorate)
W 8 D 2 L 6
Players: A-Aron vs Tom (non-forum)
Factions: Tarakians vs Sorylians
Score: 15 to -4 (Tarakians)
W 8 D 2 L 7
Players: Brandon (non-forum)vs DM_Matt
Factions: Terrans vs Sorylians
Score: 8 to -1 (Terrans)
W 8 D 2 L 8
Zaliam vs StealthSpider
Factions: Dindrenzi vs Sorrylian
Battle Log: 6 to 15
W 9 D 2 L 8
Karen Lynn vs (forgot, lemme look him up again)
Factions: Dindrenzi vs Sorrylian
Battle Log: 18 to 4
W 9 D 2 L 9
 
That was my way of thought(count :)).

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That makes sense though I'm still not sure. I hate the way a few people write these down...

I interpreted two of the scores where a player wrote the faction name next to a negative number as implying that faction received the negative score. So, for example, if someone wrote -2 (Terrans) I assumed that the Terrans scored -2.

It would be nice if the format was more closely followed with less random data.

Either way though - it's a much better showing than at first.

I like Allegro's post in the war log yesterday as his Relthoza got beat up by the Sorys "Sorylians are a terrible faction? Cool story bro".

Zak

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I like Allegro's post in the war log yesterday as his Relthoza got beat up by the Sorys "Sorylians are a terrible faction? Cool story bro".

Zak

I certainly haven't been beated up by Sorylians! tsk.. I just had to turn on our FSD and flee away.  :P   :D 

I did some mistakes again.. which cost me the game.. again. but I'm learning fast so.. nextime lizards you will pay!   :lol: 

but.. What I learnt and liked about sorylians in the game yesterday.. 

- every capital ship have 3+ repair rolls? Cool! Repairing critical hit effects and Relthozan Corrosive is way more simplier! 

- high CR.. hard to crit.. fortunatelly I'm good dice roller.   :P 

- scatter weapons? Cool! I have lost 6 frigates in one turn with a blink of an eye. 

- Large squadron sizes. 4 cruisers, 5 frigates.. thats just helping a lot to keep survivability high. Cruisers with 20 AD are best tier 1 hunters!  

- card which allow you to board with 3+? Cool! Some Thermal bla bla.. not useful against spiders though..  :lol: 

The poor Falx which has been object of discussion all the time.. well he's not superstar like my Nexus :P  but with proper upgrades he's fine. And with accompaniment he just laugh torpedos in the .. eye? 

I really like Sorylians.. I would love to play them really. 

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Yeah, I agree that that should be the way it should be interpreted. , I think people should always keep the winner dictate on the tone separate mine away from anything to do with points or scores.

And I'm officially making 10 – 2–9 with allegros entry :P

Zak

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I've played Sorylians a few games recently, the major problem I've encountered with them is how the cruisers, frigate and corvette all got their front teeth kicked out to various degrees in this edition, this combined with having the shortest weapon range bands is what really hurts them.

-Heavy Cruiser: Lost everything gun-wise in RB4, while not all that bad it's still a detriment. I miss the rear arc torpedoes greatly, two out of three games, at least twice per game I had a chance to aft torpedo targets, but nope, no more aft torpedoes in this edition.  (At least Spartan didn't keep the Fixed arc torpedo gimping BS from v1.5)

-Cruiser: That loss of AD in RB3 on the Fore guns, hurts a lot more than you would think.  Torpedoes on an approach don't do jack anymore without decent forward guns to punch on a target first and attempt to reduce some PD, the linked fore guns at RB 3 in V1 and 1.5 = 10AD, vs the 5AD in V2. (And again grateful for the removal of retarded Fixed arc Torps)

-and I think everybody by now knows my beef with the Frigates and Corvettes.

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I've played Sorylians a few games recently, the major problem I've encountered with them is how the cruisers, frigate and corvette all got their front teeth kicked out to various degrees in this edition, this combined with having the shortest weapon range bands is what really hurts them.

-Heavy Cruiser: Lost everything gun-wise in RB4, while not all that bad it's still a detriment. I miss the rear arc torpedoes greatly, two out of three games, at least twice per game I had a chance to aft torpedo targets, but nope, no more aft torpedoes in this edition.  (At least Spartan didn't keep the Fixed arc torpedo gimping BS from v1.5)

-Cruiser: That loss of AD in RB3 on the Fore guns, hurts a lot more than you would think.  Torpedoes on an approach don't do jack anymore without decent forward guns to punch on a target first and attempt to reduce some PD, the linked fore guns at RB 3 in V1 and 1.5 = 10AD, vs the 5AD in V2. (And again grateful for the removal of retarded Fixed arc Torps)

-and I think everybody by now knows my beef with the Frigates and Corvettes.

 

That´s more or less what i said about the nerfing of the fixed fore on Sorylians. Except you also added the trouble with the torpedoes in reducing PD.

 

Temporary sollution: Buy moar Kestros :ph34r: 

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I'm a new player who has only played a test game or two with the 1.5 rules but for what it's worth I'm having a pretty awesome test game playing Sorylian vs Directorate.  I think my opponent in the current game I'm playing made some mistakes during set up that he won't make again.  He split his force up really good, allowed me to mask a lot of fire with terrain, and he didn't see the scout mar coming.  I am a really big fan of the scout mar.  I don't think I would ever run a Sorylian list without trying to take advantage of that gem.

 

If the Sorylians are not broken but only perceived to be broken then that is a major plus in my opinion.  It is very frustrating to play a broken faction in a miniature war game but if the faction is just a challenge to play or simply the butt of a lot of jokes then I consider it an advantage.  Your opponent underestimating you can play in your favor.  Also, if it's not a challenge then I feel it probably isn't a whole lot of fun.  And if you win with the faction that people look down on I feel like it's a double win. 

 

I won't play anything GW anymore but the topic is reminiscent of a 1000 point 40k game I played with an Imperial Guard infantry company (before whatever edition it was when GW made transports basically mandatory in an effort to sell tons of plastic crack) vs a well rounded Ultramarine force.  I completing wiped out the Space Marines, terminators, bikes, assault marines, dread in a drop pod, devastators and all.  My losses were an immobilized Leman Russ (I only had 1) and a single guardsman who was slayed by the storm bolter on the drop pod that landed next to him.  Flash light jokes aside, try writing the fluff for that.  It's easy to explain a loss to a powerful faction but if you lose to a faction that you consider weak...

 

If there is a considerable amount of FSA players who think the Sorylians are a gimp faction and they are not, I can't help but want to play Sorylian.

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Hi Lagarto! ^_^  I liked your post because I felt the same: I played eldar under the old codex against masses and masses of Space Canned Men XD. Indeed very frustrating.

 

More on topic Sorylians in V1.5 were a lot more powerfull and because that the other faction got buffed, so the Sorylians become from a "straightfowrard easy to play" (they were recommended a lot to be used by begineers) to a more "plan ahead" fleet. To resume some of the main changes they got more speed options for they larges, they got they weapon range shortened mostly on the front, they got scatter, kinetics and some nukes, but the game mechanics (SRS, boarding, cards) have also changed a lot and we are here still looking to adapt to the new rules (Sorylians don´t like changes much)

 

So here we go, and welcome to the forums :)

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I still need to get my 2.0 rulebook but thanks for the heads up on the changes.

 

edit*  We've actually been using the 2.0 range bands so I guess we're playing a 1.75ish game which I imagine is good news since the range band changes you mention sound like the worst part.  I have been staying away from SRS tokens because I'm still learning the game.  I will probably just continue to avoid them until I get a proper rule book. 

 

edit**  Scouts MAR definitely lends itself to the "plan ahead" faction. 

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Hi, I'm new to FS:A having only recently got the 2.0 boxed set (so i have only played Terran and Dindrenzi). I'm really looking forward to trying the Sorylians and have read through all your comments on them (it has taken a few of days)!

 

I'm no stranger to strategy and I have played a load of GW in my time, FoW and countless strategy computer games. I like that this is an underdog race and especially like the support the admirals in the room are giving it.

 

Thd dread actually looks like it has retractable plating. My reasoning behind some fore armour is it gives a little more strategy then hope the enemy rolls poorly on your long slow approach.

 

I guess my opinion doesn't count for much yet but i like what Captnmartin said here. It seems alot of peeps are having trouble getting up the board so perhaps some sort of retractable plating MAR would have been a good idea (can't fire weapons when active but raise DR and/or CR) whilst they approach?

 

It could just be that Sorylians are supposed to capitalize on board short cuts more like shunting and flanking? It isn't unusual in strategy games for different races to have different strengths. Dindrenzi benefit much less from this so there's your opposite.

 

I intend to get the patrol fleet and Destroyers for my 800 point list.

(Falx +4AP,+2nd Assault,+split fire,+reinforced; 4 skyhammer+engineers; 5 reapers+pack hunters; 3 Kestros)

I will run a flank/avoidance in an attempt to make my opponent turn/separate/approach with my cruisers, whilst trying to weaken squad sizes with my destroyers.

I will then shunt the falx and frigates and attempt a brutal close range brawl/boarding fest whilst the cruisers use their advanced speed to try and get into the action once it kicks off.

 

If the enemy fleet is split i will attack one half at a time. If not then it will either be encircled by me for moving out, or hiding in a corner meaning i shouldn't have taken much damage pre-shunt. I'm being a bit all comers with my list as i like to be flexible.

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This might work. I'd probably take speed on the cruisers instead of engineers. I presume +reinforced means weapon shielding. If not, than you absolutely need weapon shielding, never miss it.

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A solution I think that would help the Sorylians is that the dreadnought and battleship should have kinetic weapons. The Hasta has them so why wouldn't the big dogs in the fleet not have them? I don't think it would unbalance the game.

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