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Commodore Jones

Retro Pilgrim

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There's an ever present grumbling among the Terran players in our group as to how expensive the Armsman/uprated Pilgrim is.  Yesterday I introduced this idea to our group and it was accepted with enthusiasm.  Thought I would present it here for some outside opinions. If you had the option would you use this in your Terran fleet builds?  The only caveat would be is that you MUST have the actual old style Pilgrim models to fly these stats.

 

oldPilgrim3png_zps6224239e.png

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I hate to say this but...

 

Given how torpedoes work in this edition that's crazy powerful late game.  This is like a Sular class frigate on steroids - it trades DR4 for a shield and a gun rack for fixed for - yet it's cheaper with better torps.

 

personally would object to something like that being on the table but if you're group finds it acceptable I'd say go for it. It'll tear equally pointed frigates out of the fabric of space and time!!!

 

Zak

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being a terran player from time to time, this option of the retro is OP. The old pilgrim was just plain amazing.... the new pilgrim brings a completely different purpose to the terran fleet. The terrans now have a much more defined playstyle and feel. giving access to the old pilgrim is not a good idea in my opinion.

Give the dindrenzi back their old gunships too?

How about the old Directorate frigates too?

some fleets took a hit in various places compared to the older versions, do the terrans want to play 15 points more for their cruisers like they used to?

 

there is balance in the new fleets, better than before, I wouldn't want to see old stats creeping back in because someone wants to win a game..

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I don't see the OP in it. Okay, only 20 Points. But. DR 3 and Fore Fix Weapons.

 

I think, in the fist 2/3 of the Battle this will be weaker as the Offical Pilgrim. Sure, in the Late game the Torps are realy Powerfull. But the Player Need to bring them to the end of the Game, and that with DR3 and 1 Shield. ^^ 

For me, i would stay by the Offical pilgrim.

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I actually dont think its crazy OP at all honestly.  I think its a tad stronger than the Armsmen though just simply because of its price efficency and you can use it as a dagger thrust 10AD fore attack with backup torpedoes really easily for only 80pts if you want to saving 40pts for a similar and slightly less effective direct attack (but slighlty more valuable indirect attack) from the Armsmen.  But again only a tad.  There are a number of factors that limit it from being bannaynays that were discovered during the early Terran playtests that had led to the evolution of the ships torpedo numbers to X/Y/Y/Z instead of the old X/Y/Z/A like this one is above.  The fore weapon and its initial range band increments make it tricky to find a way to both engage the enemy with the most effective torpedo/direct fire combination.  This is something the old Pilgrim could handle much better with its shorter range band increments but that came with its own set of problems.  

 

The original Pilgrim was a 25pt model in my mind, it was certainly one of the premier Frigates of the game back then.  In ways the new edition helps then hurts the legacy rules if they were more or less dumped into the game.  In this instance, the new coherencies, the impracticality of both keeping a fore fixed while getting a decent firing solution with its torps work against the Pilgirm.  To counter act the latter issue purchase of the torpedo upgrade is nessasary but again it still has a few quirks there. 

The new Armsmen I think found its place by the realisation the old Pilgrim was indeed worth 25pts and not 30, and while the current ship in the Terran lists eventually got rounded out in a few ways (High CP values, Beams to allow it to 'skirt' a fight better and keep its torps at ranges longer and the increased DR) led to the Terran small ship divorcing itself of what the Pilgrim was and evolving in some slight fashion.  The original Pilgrim design probaly still works, and keeping it at its legacy points is a safe way to gauge it prior to exposinig it to rigorous testing to see whether the knock on effects of 2.0 make it more or less effective than it was before.

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I hate to say this but...

 

Given how torpedoes work in this edition that's crazy powerful late game.  This is like a Sular class frigate on steroids - it trades DR4 for a shield and a gun rack for fixed for - yet it's cheaper with better torps.

 

personally would object to something like that being on the table but if you're group finds it acceptable I'd say go for it. It'll tear equally pointed frigates out of the fabric of space and time!!!

 

Zak

 

Are you sure you're not just protesting this because it came from me?  LOL!

I mean really, a disadvantaged (one less set of guns in a limited and inconvenient arc and worse torpedo stats) and thus slightly cheaper version of the Armsman is "crazy powerful".

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I would take it. There is very little that can reasonably hurt them at RB4 that it is worth the time to shoot at frigates with, and at 20 points apiece, you can flood the field with them like in the 1.5 days.

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Not crazy powerful, but probably five points to cheap on base cost.  -1 DR, -1 CP, -1 AD Torps in RB 1/2, and changing P/S to FF on the Primary Weapons do not a 10 point per ship drop make.  The fact remains the primary usage of the ship is still long range torpedoes, that the stats do not change at all.

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Give the dindrenzi back their old gunships too?

How about the old Directorate frigates too?

 

there is balance in the new fleets, better than before, I wouldn't want to see old stats creeping back in because someone wants to win a game..

 

Actually, the two Dindrenzi players have requested I do up retro stats on the Hammers, giving them back turret racks instead of torpedoes.  I've not convinced our resident Directorate player to get back into the game, but from the games I've played proxies for the Directorate, I for one would like to have the old multi-arc frigates back again.

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Not crazy powerful, but probably five points to cheap on base cost.  -1 DR, -1 CP, -1 AD Torps in RB 1/2, and changing P/S to FF on the Primary Weapons do not a 10 point per ship drop make.

Actually it does.  Run the Armsman stats through the build rules it prices out at a 35 point ship.  Making it 5 points cheaper than it's build-out just like the original Pilgrim before it. 

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Jones, no offence good sir, but the build rules are now 2 editions old, and Spartan didn't use them to build their ships anyway, seeing as how the Terran Battleship had a turret reserved for Leviathan class vessels.  

 

It was painfully easy to min-max ships on, and barely relevant when it was printed.  So I will say that running the build through it does not exactly hold a great deal of water for the purpose of the discussion.

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Actually it does. Run the Armsman stats through the build rules it prices out at a 35 point ship. Making it 5 points cheaper than it's build-out just like the original Pilgrim before it.

To be frank your V1 ship builder and $2.00 will buy you a cup of coffee and not do jack shyte else. It's irrelevant in this edition. I'm sorry man...but it really is. You do realize that every single ship in this edition was baseline adjusted in stats and points based on field performance and not the ship creator, right?

I'm actually not trying to be a dingus to you - that system just isn't used anymore. It's not. The ships have to be balanced to what their on field potential really is, not a formula that inherently can't take that into account.

Your ships isn't that bad; it's not something I'd feel comfortable fielding (it's just too good at 20 points). I would protest - but allow - a 25 point cost on it if I was into home brews (I can't get into them because they mess with the core balance of the game but I'm never against people making them as...I have made them on occasion and even recently with my minesweeper in general).

TLDR - I can maybe see this thing at 25 points but its reason to live would be to sit behind a planet and spit 10 torps a turn all day long on the cheap. It's beardy in the old school GW sense of the word to try and field those at 20.

Zak

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I have to agree with zak.  The Ship Construction rules where not followed in V1, where less relevant in V1.5, and are totally out of date in V2.  At best, you give you a starting point for playtesting to determine the correct value.

 

Also, the old Pilgrim under the V1 Ship Construction rules is a 25 point ship  ;)

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I spent a bit of time lloking it over and I dont even think its bad for 20pts either. Its just something that does come off a bit min maxy. At 30pts with both upgrades though it isnt too far out being slightly worse defensively than the 30pt armsmen but better offensively with a longer ranged beam attack. Albeit with less convienent mobility as its fore fixed rather than broadside malomg it harder to run along the field and fight at the same time.

Thats not horrible but to throw my hat in otherwise the old ship construct rules were awful.

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On the subject of the other ships... I miss Gun Rack Hammers as well and sought to have an upgrade to switch out the torps for Gunracks but Spartan alas it didn't happen.

That would have been a useful switch, very much changes the frigate's role. Oh well.

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So, i played with the Pilgrim and really think, the new ist WAY Better.

I don't know how big your battlefield ist, but we play on a 96X48 Battlefield. So normal the maximal battlerange is 36" And under this circumstanes the New Pilgrim wit 3 Torp attacks on 12-36" do more Damage.

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well, 10 Points more should Show some difference, or?

 

And for me, the new ist better than the old. Becaus i use them as Long range Artillerie to kill enemy frigats. And now they are better at that part. And the broadsides fit better in my way of playing than the fore fix

So SG did somthing right, was all i want to say after my post, how awfull the terres sems to be. ^_^

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