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Mines, Too powerful?

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In my last game I brought escorts with minefields and dropped mines from the cruisers every turn.  By turn 4 or 5 there was a lot area denial going on.  The Chironex drive by was pretty brutal to his Terran frigates and even after my squadron was beat to hell they still managed a 'suicide' mine drop at full strength and full move on his BB.

With terrain on the table (3 asteroid fields, 1 planetoid) I had no problem getting close very quickly with minimal damage and the area denial of the mines is even more pronounced.  Quick aside - are people generally playing with that amount of terrain?  It sounds like some people are using less.

I will say that the psychological effect of seeing the mines on the table was often greater than the actual threat. A 6AD mine isn't much of a threat to most capital ships but the possibility is certainly there.

 

As an Aquan player I would be ok with mines as a one time only weapon.  

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I agree with the above, in 1.5 I always used mines as a one use weapon and was quite delighted to discover otherwise! And my comment was more about the proposed changes invalidating 3 different ships Mars as if I hit a tier 3 squad with my minefield and manage to wound one it pd that one away.... I do like remora, but part of thier 20 point cost is that minefield that I would worry is not worth the points, especially as you said if a hawker/terran tier 1/2 Flys into it

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Honestly, I'm finding this entire conversation very frustrating. I feel like the conversations on this forum are getting very repetitive.

 

OP: Hey guys, there's this special rule that not every faction has access to and I think it's totally broken because I won/lost some games with it.

 

Posters: Yes, this special rule is totally broken.

 

Posters: Here are a bunch of ways we could nerf this rule. Sure, we aren't game designers and we don't have anyone extensively beta testing our random houserules.

 

Some Other Poster: Actually, I think things are fine.

 

Posters: No, it's not fine because you can use this rule to win. Therefore it's broken.

 

Seriously, people? This is the level of the discourse here? Should I start a thread saying that turrets are broken because this one time I lost a game to Terrans and Terrans have turrets? Are the movement rules broken because this one time I beat a Relthoza player with my Aquans, and one of the things I did was thoroughly outflank and outmaneuver him.

 

To take the logic of these threads to their ultimate conclusion, what we should really do is nerf everything. You know what game I hear is really well balanced? Checkers. Every piece has the same rules, and every player has the same number of perfectly identical rules. In any wargame, you are sometimes going to win or lose games because of the special rules your models have or don't have. That's the entire freaking point. If we attack every unique rule, every way that a faction is better than another faction at what it's supposed to be good at, we are going to end up with an exquisitely balanced, exquisitely boring game.

 

Play checkers. Leave my FSA alone.

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As an Aquan player I would be ok with mines as a one time only weapon.

While I have many issues with the Aquan fleet, ranging from weapons to Upgrades and so on, I am vehemently against any downgrading effects on Mines.

For Aquan cruisers, the cost factoring of Mines are already sunk in with the price of each vessel. Even when we up the cost to 60pts apiece, Aquan mediums are still under gunned.

Sorry, but the Mines on those ships are an asset and another extension of what that unit is meant/designed to accomplish: they are support vessels for the Aquan fleet as a whole. My 2 cents. (meaning Mines and to a lesser degree Torps are their calling cards, with their only real sense of defense coming by way of having a -1 for opponents to hit)

And the Zenian League must be destroyed.

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Yeah, I've been holding back from commenting on this thread because I wanted to see what people had to say first, but I really don't see anything wrong with mines. Are they stronger than they used to be? Yes. Absolutely. Can they swing a game in favor of one player over the other? Yes. But so can every other weapon system.

 

I don't want to see Mines nerfed back in to the stone age, especially since no one is complaining about the effectiveness of Dindrenzi mines, which are also much improved, though they serve very different functions strategically. 

 

Remember everyone, the game is still very young. We need to give ourselves time to learn the new tactics required by the recent changes to the game system. Calling for changing a TAC is one thing, core rules is something else entirely.

 

That said, I do think that it is interesting that most of these "OMG OP" topics popping up are making their claims in the context of facing Aquans. That's not statistically significant, it's anecdotal at best. But I'll be interested to see if it becomes a trend.

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Hey now, this is a wargaming forum.  We don't do that "statistically significant" BS :)

 

Aquans saw one of the larger playstyle changes of any of the factions (medium range skirmishers rather than short), and some of the largest rules changes were in areas they already specialized in (mines, wings).  Add in the fact that Evasive Maneuvers was a flat out miss by the beta team (in my opinion, and as one of the main Aquan guys that hurts), and they are causing some issues at the moment.  Time will tell if the problems are significant enough to require re-statting a few things, or if players will figure out how to beat them without excessive list-tailoring (though list-tailoring bothers me less than it does others--were this a real war you'd typically know the faction you'd encounter, even if not the exact makeup).

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Good feedback so far, and Pok / Zak I expect a full report on the brawl and who won and got a kiss from Leia...

 

SRS tokens "mine sweeping" was a bad idea in the old rules and should not be used now. Using support shuttles would make players feel the need to use them and then get sour that if they didn't use them to clear mines they wasted points.

 

I am bringing this topic up to cover tournament play not just you and your friends and the same lists/fleets constantly... In a tournament setting you will be up against a multitude of fleets, some with mines, some without.

 

The chance to have PD (elusive) against them would cover all races and not give to large an advantage... Having "mine sweepers" as fighters or support I disagree with. Having an SRS token for only mines would also be a waste.

 

EP: want to stress I'm not attacking mines and stating to nerf them to the ground. I think that being hit by a non primary weapon with next to no defense is a little out of balance considering they gained a large amount of power from 1.5 to 2.0 with next to no defense against them. I constantly double crit cruisers with mines and I just think that is a little above there inteanded use. Also side not (and a cheap shot) RB1 with beams is great.. fantastic in fact... Re rolling ones albeit doesn't happen every time, is a large advantage that out ways the loss of 1 AD for the RB change.

 

Great feedback everyone btw.. keep it coming.

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Weeeeeeee.

To be fair it's something I haven't adapted my play style to yet. I anticipate the cruiser bombing run yes, but i've not actively done much to counter it. I keep making the same mistake of running right into its open arms. And there is no blanket solution for it. Each race has to counter it differently. I doubt that renzi have much trouble with it as they can snipe the cruiser squad at range. Terran may have to be a bit more creative as they are close quarters fighters.

 

I appreciate all of these comments and they've calmed me down a bit. Lets be level headed and not call for a change in the core rules as a knee-jerk reaction (guilty here). That is an absolute last resort. Next steps: Let's all report constructively things we find in gameplay that work well to counter the alleged OP mines (again guilty here of calling them OP).

I'll start. In another thread it was proposed to me to toss some Artemis destroyers on the table and focus fire on those chironex. I'll try that and report back.

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it was proposed to me to toss some Artemis destroyers on the table and focus fire on those chironex. I'll try that and report back.

Yes, Nukes are a strong answer to anything with Difficult Target. The Hermes' nukes brings less raw AD and are subject to PD, but they benefit from being able to ignore terrain impediments, so while I wouldn't expect to Crit every time, they have different counters than the Artimis.

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Weeeeeeee.

To be fair it's something I haven't adapted my play style to yet. I anticipate the cruiser bombing run yes, but i've not actively done much to counter it. I keep making the same mistake of running right into its open arms. And there is no blanket solution for it. Each race has to counter it differently. I doubt that renzi have much trouble with it as they can snipe the cruiser squad at range. Terran may have to be a bit more creative as they are close quarters fighters.

 

I appreciate all of these comments and they've calmed me down a bit. Lets be level headed and not call for a change in the core rules as a knee-jerk reaction (guilty here). That is an absolute last resort. Next steps: Let's all report constructively things we find in gameplay that work well to counter the alleged OP mines (again guilty here of calling them OP).

I'll start. In another thread it was proposed to me to toss some Artemis destroyers on the table and focus fire on those chironex. I'll try that and report back.

 

I'd be really keen on trying Alextroy's list (not to give away spoilers/tactics). His suggestions are spot on to what I usually fear the most...

 

Let us know how it goes - some matchups are always tough and Aquans (as Red's said) have changed the most in this edition so many people are used to them being rolled over - now they're fighting back. That doesn't mean that maybe they're not fighting back too well but I want to see tactics and matchups first - then bashing things (well...other than Pok ;) ) upside the head second.

 

A few more thoughts after I scrounge for food...

 

Zak

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I dont think that anything needs to happen to the core rules.  But I do believe as the rules grow some natural counters to MARs arise in future models.

SRS/Wing sweeping the way it was before was dumb.  Move a 5pt non-thing through 5 mine tokens.  They all explode for no effect on any ship....carry on.  

 

Whatever happens, right now I dont think the game is imploding because of mines, I instead believe it is an opportunity to expand into another facet of the game.  Mines are powerful and natural counters to X,Y,Z.  Deepening the number of counter strategies outside of: Picking the right ships to tank/kill the right ships -or- Dont move onto the mines would be my preference.

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I haven't found mines to be too powerful as of yet.  And yes, I have a regular Aquan player.  Two of them in fact.  And Mines can be hella good, I won't try and claim otherwise.  They're good, but it's like any other weapon system.  Ship combine to hit too hard?  Pull the teeth out of the squadron.  If I see a squadron of Storms speeding along towards me, I'll focus down on one of them.  Usually only take me a good focused run from my cruiser squadron.  If I'm still concerned, because I have smalls in the areaa or the like, then I'll usually then use the same smalls to bring down another.  Once that's been done, the cruisers are largely toothless.  6 MN isn't really a massive wrecking ball.  

 

I know it sounds obvious, but to me, it's all about threats and target priority.  So if they are a larger threat than what you expected, treat them as such and hammer them down.  It might pull some fire away from the other ships in the fleet, but its the name of the game.  Pick a target, and wreck it.  All the advice I can offer on the subject

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And again, in English, please? lol!

 

The maneuver can't be done as well in this edition due to beam weapon range bands, but how it used to work is this.

 

When things start getting close, Aquan cruisers can be quite deadly if this is set up right.  It takes 2 turns to make work and is very risky but if you do it pays off substantially.

Using that awesome speed move your Aquan cruisers between 12" to 8" away (RB 2) from your target facing fore, and attack.  Next turn (or same turn depending)you allow your target to move first, presumably straight ahead at your cruisers, close enough that it forces them to take a minimum move (3 to 5 inches depending on ship(s) class) putting them in RB1.  You then take your (surviving) cruisers turn.  Since Aquan cruisers can turn like frigates with a 0" turn limit, you can make four 45 degree turns putting your aft at the enemy launching your mines 4 inches (placing them right in detonation range of the enemy as soon as they activate next)  you then move your cruiser 3 inches back and then take four 45 degree turns again putting you back forward facing again and now 3 inches back from where you started (what we call a 3 inch backslide) and if measured right, back into range band 2!  Follow suit with the remaining cruisers in the squad.  You have now moved back into optimal firing distance and can shoot him again and have also added insult to injury, after any damage you do to him, your opponents ships are also going to eat all those mines you dropped in his face the instant he activates them again.

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It's actually been discussed and had some testing (among other anti-mine ideas) over in beta.  I have no idea if Spartan's going to pick up on the idea or not though.

 

In other words, it's not such a crazy idea, and has some support.  I always find it interesting to see what ideas spontaneously occur to non-beta testers that didn't occur to us as rapidly.

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Got wrecked again today by aquan mines. Tried to spread out to reduce mine effectiveness against me but that only left a ship in each squad out of PD link range
I focused down the cruisers but they still got a great mine drop on me before i could reduce them below effectiveness with the carrier that I added to the list. But that didnt make a dent in the mine dropping department. Everything my opponent had on the table barring frigates drops mines; at no less than 4 each. 
I conceded again when my carrier with 2 damage and my BB with 7 damage were surrounded by mines. They could not move without detonating at least 4 mines, all 7-9 AD.
I have nothing I can do to counter this yet. I'm terran and i have to get in close to win. But getting in close results in a minefield bonanza every time. I don;t think mines are a problem. Aquans moving THAT fast with minimal turn limit with THAT much mine power is giving me grief.

 

So, spreading out the fleet is what i tried this time but that made me more vulnerable to torpedo fire.
Remaking my list with a carrier helped a little but not much.

Trying destroyers next. 

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 I don;t think mines are a problem. Aquans moving THAT fast with minimal turn limit with THAT much mine power is giving me grief.

 

 

Yep. I think the cruiser(and possibly the heavy cruiser as well) needs its mine stat reduced by one. Either that or raise the point costs of the cruisers.

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I'm Terran and I've not had any trouble dealing with mines. I do think that Aquan cruisers are a little bit absurd, but it's not the mines that make them so: it's their huge firepower (17 dice to fore at full power!) in multiple arcs combined with difficult target. I've not actually been threatened by mines at all. Hell, I set them off on purpose to damage my enemy once the battlefield gets cluttered enough.

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The terran cruiser has for the same points better firepower than the Aquan cruiser, and sector shielding! They also have access to beams, so while I have precision strikes better mv and mines, they have sector shielding, more crew and more firepower. Why should my cruiser cost more on the off chance that I get to use my mines effectively?

My main opponent is a terran player and his missionary have a habit of detonating my mines on me when I try a drive by

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Got wrecked again today by aquan mines. Tried to spread out to reduce mine effectiveness against me but that only left a ship in each squad out of PD link range

I focused down the cruisers but they still got a great mine drop on me before i could reduce them below effectiveness with the carrier that I added to the list. But that didnt make a dent in the mine dropping department. Everything my opponent had on the table barring frigates drops mines; at no less than 4 each. 

I conceded again when my carrier with 2 damage and my BB with 7 damage were surrounded by mines. They could not move without detonating at least 4 mines, all 7-9 AD.

I have nothing I can do to counter this yet. I'm terran and i have to get in close to win. But getting in close results in a minefield bonanza every time. I don;t think mines are a problem. Aquans moving THAT fast with minimal turn limit with THAT much mine power is giving me grief.

 

So, spreading out the fleet is what i tried this time but that made me more vulnerable to torpedo fire.

Remaking my list with a carrier helped a little but not much.

Trying destroyers next. 

 

Here is a link to the battle report today. (post #8)

 

http://community.spartangames.co.uk/index.php?/topic/8467-800-point-aquan-vs-terran/

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The terran cruiser has for the same points better firepower than the Aquan cruiser, and sector shielding! They also have access to beams, so while I have precision strikes better mv and mines, they have sector shielding, more crew and more firepower. Why should my cruiser cost more on the off chance that I get to use my mines effectively? My main opponent is a terran player and his missionary have a habit of detonating my mines on me when I try a drive by

 

The Chironex will usually have the first punch, because of more speed (and more range, if terran doesn´t have beams). At the first punch, the Aquan can move at 20" and fire fore and p/s weapons at the terran squad. Aquan fore is not fixed, so at 20" they can shoot at 1 model with fore and on one model with p/s at that range (only a very few ships can do this). So they have about twice the firepower of a terran cruiser at that range. As soon as undamaged terran cruiser squadrons are within the Aquan formations and can throw a lot of dice at different arcs, there will be the mine problem. On top of that, Chironex have difficult target. I don´t say the terran cruisers are bad, but at a competitive enviroment, I would always put my bets on the Chironex. However, there are some cruisers equally insane like the Chironex- even without mines. Did anyone play against some Interdictor Cruisers yet (Works Raptor)?

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Did anyone play against some Interdictor Cruisers yet

Yes. If I recall they killed some frigates and did next to nothing to my cruisers. Then my missionaries shunted in and as the interdictor was below 20" and frigates are not capitals, they had no defenses. They didn't die immediately, but I did blow one up in one shooting phase.

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