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Captain_Dan

Sorylians in V2

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Out of curiosity, what other points do you disagree with?

 

Ending a sentence with a preposition. 

 

(Gaaaahhh!!!! sorry, I had to say that and yes I'm being a total dingus lol but if you ever took Latin... you'd understand so forgive me ;))

 

I'm not sold on giving the Flax a base movement of 8". The much vaunted Maelstrom can reach 9" but it takes it two hardpoints and that means either not bringing SRS or not having anything but a single shield so there is a pretty big opportunity cost. To be honest my builds for the Poseidon (its more proper name) rarely hit the extra move due to scrapping for points and a preference for turn mode (which is cheap and I play on fairly terrain heavy boards), SRS and shield (CR10 as you know from the Flax isn't winning any attrition wars). So yes the Aquan BB can make it to 9" but it's virtually never going to due to other needs/restrictions. There has been much debate on the subject in the PT area (as you've guessed). Having the Flax be faster is something I think everyone - even those not made of boot material - agrees should happen. The rest is a question of experience and perception. The concept that it's a ship that is unsavable doesn't match but with my theory hammer or experience (of which I hope to increase soon). I view it as a decent if somewhat bland ship. It lacks the sexiness of the Brood/Nexus (really a cloaked brood tearing into your hull with 6 bombers is kinda scary) or the Poseidon but I've found it gets the job done.

 

I recall one other "hmm....erm...no" point from earlier but I'm sifting back through some of the mental ramblings of Mr. BIGGER FONT NOW AND CAPS LOCK KEY (aka Skyhammer) and it's taking me a moment :P. Otherwise some good analysis and good thoughts.

 

Zak

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I'm not sold on giving the Flax a base movement of 8". 

Oh, no.

Please don't open up another front. We will be here for months and it will end with the loss of millions of lives.....  :P

 

 

 

I recall one other "hmm....erm...no" point from earlier but I'm sifting back through some of the mental ramblings of Mr. BIGGER FONT NOW AND CAPS LOCK KEY (aka Skyhammer) and it's taking me a moment :P

 

Ummmm, who's that?   :D

 

 

He's in this discussion thread, correct?  :lol:

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Ah okay, gotcha.

 

I myself was originally a proponent of base 7" with options to 9", but I think it'd eat up too many hardpoints that the Falx really needs elsewhere.  Not only that, but the other hardpoints options (under the proposed hull) would be still rather contested.

 

I think the base 8" is not unreasonable, but then again, I'd probably be happy with base 7" if everything else I've discussed is somewhat/mostly implemented.

 

I do agree that the ship itself isn't overly flawed.  The torps should be Fore, but besides that, making it effectively cheaper (reinforced broadsides included) solves a dual issue of being too costly and not having any real identity out of the box.

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I think the base 8" is not unreasonable, but then again, I'd probably be happy with base 7" if everything else I've discussed is somewhat/mostly implemented.

 

I wouldn't be happy with 7" as a base move.

For all of the circumstances and possible tactical analysis posted on this thread, as well as yours TTW, the overbearing thoughts (possibly lead by perceptions) are that the ship needs to be faster, especially if it will retain its current weapons layout (broadside Scatter Weapons).

If this ship is further degraded in Movement, the loss would be not minute but rather significant when you figure in the usage of Hardpoints to elevate the vessel to a respectable fighting platform.

 

While I don't have a say in what happens to this vessel, and considering others who might, the cost of having a slow moving BB is pretty much one of the most glaring issues with this ship right now. Upping the base Move to 7" is not doing the ship any service. 

 

Again, time will tell when the final product is presented.

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What if the base movement was 7 and the Mv Hardpoint turned to 0-1 Mv +2 10 points?

Personally I've pushed the base movement of 8 on the Falx in the Beta thread...

 

Which is totally reasonable to me.

 

I'm not nearly as fussed about the smaller details as other users might be, but as long as something gets done in the right direction, I'll be pleased.

 

7" base with a +2" option, or 8" with two +1" options doesn't make much of a difference to me.

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What if the base movement was 7 and the Mv Hardpoint turned to 0-1 Mv +2 10 points?

Personally I've pushed the base movement of 8 on the Falx in the Beta thread...

 

Which is totally reasonable to me.

 

I'm not nearly as fussed about the smaller details as other users might be, but as long as something gets done in the right direction, I'll be pleased.

 

7" base with a +2" option, or 8" with two +1" options doesn't make much of a difference to me.

 

It would be a move in the right direction but the Falx still needs a direction. It doesn't synergize well with the rest of the fleet.

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It would be a move in the right direction but the Falx still needs a direction. It doesn't synergize well with the rest of the fleet.

 

Which is why I advocate reinforced broadsides, switching the torps to fore, and making the boarding options a little more reasonable.

 

Then its a jumped up cruiser, which conveniently happens to be the theme of every other BB in their respective fleets.

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Actually, maybe there's a deeper undercurrent to this whole discussion; does the Sorylian fleet actually have an identity?

 

If so, can it be summed up succinctly, and has been implemented as well as it could be?  How does it compare to other fleets with a distinct identity (think Dindrezi and Aquans)?

 

Maybe there's no issue at all, but I guess it can't hurt the discussion to see how the fleet as a whole currently stands.

 

I'll have my own thoughts posted later.

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About identity.

 

In the fluff, yes they have.

On the table, it's hard to see it.

 

Does it need it? I think yes. It create a deeper layer of creativity and imagination.

 

There is already a success with;

 

the Directorate.....they use plasma cannon. Plasma generate radioactivity. And we see this if you add biohazard ammo.

the Relthoza......they use nanotechnology. Nanobites create the cloaking system, the self repair ability and does damage overtime.

the Aquan....they're best at beam weapon & they use acidic torpedoes uses as spores and they hit almost on every arcs.

the Terran...the're master of shield systems and fission technology to create nuclear energy.

the Dindranzi.....master of long rang firepower, uses by Kinetic weapon..added the high energy, and we get a scaring fleet.

 

Sorylian.....scatter weapon only good against small.......something is missing here....coherency effect.

 

Coherency effect add a fun factor to the person that play with it.  

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It goes a little deeper than that too.

 

There's the entire mobility and defensive identity for each race too.

 

The Dindrezi and Terran are well developed in this area, while Aquan and Directorate have a little bit of a confused identity with some of their ships.  Relthozans cloak.

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I think the issue is that the Aquans and Terrans mostly do the Sorylians thang better. The Sorylians try to mesh these styles with dubious results, and the only other trick they bring is boarding. I'd argue that directorate and relthoza are just as good in this area and have more ways to stack the deck in their favour, while the lizards have to rely on brute force. You should be able to describe any faction in a sentence;

 

Terrans: Slow, durable, short range sluggers

Aquans: Fast, nimble mid range keep away fleet with an emphasis on fighters

Relthoza: Patient, fragile, short ranged ambush predators

Directorate: The trickster faction, excelling in crippling enemy fleets

Dindrenzi: Durable, long range snipers

 

So...what are the Sorylians?

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Scopedog covers the basics of what I'm generally getting at.

 

The Dindrezi and Terrans I think are the most consistent in having a solid, identifiable theme.  Aquans and Relthoza are very short behind that, though I think there are a few odd ships out for both of those factions.

 

Directorate are kind of wonky in that they have ships with cloaks, stealth, shields, and a mix of secondary coherencies, and weapon systems.

 

Sorylians are neither the fastest, most durable, hardest hitting, or best boarders.  If their identity is that of a middle of the road brawler, then they're not too far off, but part of me feels that they could that extra something to delineate that further.  Something like Ablative plating, or reinforced fore for the Dindrezi and Directorate, respectively.  Energy transfer and lower turning limits for the Aquans almost universally.  Cloaking everywhere for the Relthoza.  Super shields and slow for the Terran.

 

If the Sorylians are supposed to be up close brawlers with a broadside fetish (that at least is pretty well defined), then why not give them a more universally available MAR to help with that; Reinforced Port/Starboard.

 

Sadly, only two Sorylian have access to it, and the Falx could really use it stock, while the Kopis is a nice addition to a solid ship.  Should more of them have access to it?  The Broadsword, Hasta, and Falcata would work well with the upgrade, further defining their purpose to get stuck in a giant furball with enemies on all sides, relentlessly pounding away with salvoes of high explosive box barrages while refusing to die.

 

I have a large post in the making doing a more detailed analysis of the theme for each faction with examples, but I do have to pretend to be doing work now.

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Terrans: Slow, durable, short range sluggers

Aquans: Fast, nimble mid range keep away fleet with an emphasis on fighters

Relthoza: Patient, fragile, short ranged ambush predators

Directorate: The trickster faction, excelling in crippling enemy fleets

Dindrenzi: Durable, long range snipers

 

So...what are the Sorylians?

 

Bingo.

And herein lies the fault with the current Sorylians. (in general, and not in any specific manner)

 

In V1 - V1.5, when boarding was a viable option that can be used (and abused sometimes), the Sorylian fleet had an identity, of sorts. They were able to threaten with boarding (due to their high AP on most ships, from Small to Medium) and were able to throw out tons of AD to devastate their enemies.... Now, in V2, since boarding is honestly not that common due to several limiting factors (and I'm not wishing to get into an argument with anyone here over boarding in V2), the Sorylian fleet has had that arm chopped off.... that loss is huge.

 

 

 

 

 

Which is why I advocate reinforced broadsides, switching the torps to fore, and making the boarding options a little more reasonable.

 

The BB needs, seriously needs Base 8"Move, additional options in upgrades, Engineers and Weapons Shielding, and a higher AP.   (well said TTW!)

 

 

We are so close to this agreement that we only need to sign on the dotted line, so to speak..... SG, please, let's agree to this and move on. Too many lives have been lost already.  :P

 

 

 

 

Then its a jumped up cruiser, which conveniently happens to be the theme of every other BB in their respective fleets.

 

Absolutely well said. 

In comparison, the BB was not well thought out when you factor in those variables and view the BB through that spectrum. 

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The thing is though, the Sorylian support vessels are pretty well thought out.

 

Besides bringing the Xiphos a little more into line with the Warwolves (digging the new name almost as much as the model), the Warwolves, Kestros, Xiphos, and Hasta (to an extent) all provide the right amount and kind of support for the price that meshes well with the rest of the combat portion.

 

While discussing the aspects that could be improved, it should always be underlined that much of the fleet is still well put together and fares well.

 

And yes Sky, we can be friends  :D

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The thing is though, the Sorylian support vessels are pretty well thought out.

 

While discussing the aspects that could be improved, it should always be underlined that much of the fleet is still well put together and fares well.

Oh, absolutely.

We do tend to miss things like that as we fall over one another to post *&^$ on forums such as these.   :mellow:

 

 

 

 

And yes Sky, we can be friends  :D

 

Be careful though, guilt by association is still an ugly thing nowadays.  :D

 

 

 

 

And TTW, you are my number one guy on these forums... when I grow up, I wanna be just like you!  :ph34r:

 

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personally i would still rather the Sorylian BB be a second line ship rather than just a bigger cruiser. It should be built to where Weapon shielding is not mandatory and provides something for the fleet that the tier 2s and 3s do not. If anything I think the other tier 1s need a speed bump to cruiser lvls and the BB and Dread need to be redesigned to fulfill a specific role within the fleet along the lines of infantry backing up the mobile forces.

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personally i would still rather the Sorylian BB be a second line ship rather than just a bigger cruiser. It should be built to where Weapon shielding is not mandatory and provides something for the fleet that the tier 2s and 3s do not. If anything I think the other tier 1s need a speed bump to cruiser lvls and the BB and Dread need to be redesigned to fulfill a specific role within the fleet along the lines of infantry backing up the mobile forces.

 

Why though?  Literally every other BB in the game, including alliance ships, are scaled up versions of their cruisers.  They have matching weapon arcs, watching weapon coherencies, scaled up armour values compared to other fleets, similar defensive attributes, and generally fill the role of a bigger, badder, meaner cruiser.  That is a support ship for the workhorses of the fleet.

 

The only thing I can imagine that would be a suitable 'support' role or second line ship for the Falx would be for it to completely forego its broadsides entirely, and become a much larger Warwolf.  However, there are several issues that would go with that, but the main one being that it'd become a Nausicaa real quick without some serious leg work to make it distinct enough but still be viable in a Sorylian fleet.

 

That still leaves the Lizards effectively without a Tier 1 ship able to slug it out with other Tier 1 ships of the same weight class, which is a fairly significant issue.

 

Saying that, I'd be interested in a concept for a second Sorylian BB (Praetorian/Tyrant deal) that played up a different facet of the fleet.

 

The Sorylians right now just need the Falx to be a big Falcata and work from there.  Simplicity is often the best route.

 

I want to run something by the leaping lizards players.

What IF the Falx had 10AD broadside torpedoes WITH Split Fire MAR?

Just a radical idea I had and wanted some community feed back.

 

Personally, I don't think it really adds anything to the ship.  Split fire is really only good when you have a massive Turret weapon with solid broadsides to get two good broadsides, or when you have 18 dice to chuck and you need to crit two cruisers instead of one.

 

Split fire on 10 dice that can be PD'd doesn't strike me as fantastic.

 

I think fore torps with somewhere between 7-9 AD is the best route for the ship.

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Why though? Literally every other BB in the game, including alliance ships, are scaled up versions of their cruisers. They have matching weapon arcs, watching weapon coherencies, scaled up armour values compared to other fleets, similar defensive attributes, and generally fill the role of a bigger, badder, meaner cruiser. That is a support ship for the workhorses of the fleet.

The only thing I can imagine that would be a suitable 'support' role or second line ship for the Falx would be for it to completely forego its broadsides entirely, and become a much larger Warwolf. However, there are several issues that would go with that, but the main one being that it'd become a Nausicaa real quick without some serious leg work to make it distinct enough but still be viable in a Sorylian fleet.

That still leaves the Lizards effectively without a Tier 1 ship able to slug it out with other Tier 1 ships of the same weight class, which is a fairly significant issue.

Saying that, I'd be interested in a concept for a second Sorylian BB (Praetorian/Tyrant deal) that played up a different facet of the fleet.

The Sorylians right now just need the Falx to be a big Falcata and work from there. Simplicity is often the best route.

Personally, I don't think it really adds anything to the ship. Split fire is really only good when you have a massive Turret weapon with solid broadsides to get two good broadsides, or when you have 18 dice to chuck and you need to crit two cruisers instead of one.

Split fire on 10 dice that can be PD'd doesn't strike me as fantastic.

I think fore torps with somewhere between 7-9 AD is the best route for the ship.

Ok, so firing two salvos of 5AD at two different targets in the same squadron forcing your opponent to divide his PD is not option you would want?

Also, that weapon layout(broadside) would work better, later in the game when PD has degraded and will have a larger effect than a fore only weapon.

I would think firing options gives more tactical flexibility.

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Ok, so firing two salvos of 5AD at two different targets in the same squadron forcing your opponent to divide his PD is not option you would want?

Also, that weapon layout(broadside) would work better, later in the game when PD has degraded and will have a larger effect than a fore only weapon.

I would think firing options gives more tactical flexibility.

 

Actually, valid point.  Complete forgot about firing both split torps at the same guy for PD shenanigans.

 

And yes, there would be more dice to throw in total, but I can't get behind the concept of broadside torpedoes.  It just feels so awkward on a Sorylian ship.  Consider that every single capital ship in the Sorylian (bar the Hasta and Broadsword) has torps, and they are all in the Fore arc, it just doesn't make sense for one ship to have it broadside.

 

I speak for myself only here, and if they had to stay broadside, this is a good option.  I still strongly prefer fore torps, even if its a less optimal choice in terms of total AD or potential impact later.  I think there's something to be said for theme, and fore torps just feel right for the Lizards.

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The fore torpedoes are good on approach. After approach, you are working to line up your broadsides for maximum effect, making fore torpedoes much less effective.

I am looking at this ship later in the game, not turn 1 or 2 when PD is still at its highest.

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The fore torpedoes are good on approach. After approach, you are working to line up your broadsides for maximum effect, making fore torpedoes much less effective.

I am looking at this ship later in the game, not turn 1 or 2 when PD is still at its highest.

 

I understand where you're coming from, and its completely reasonable and would improve the ship.

 

I'd be fine if these changes were implemented, as its a straight upgrade done in a solid manner.

 

Despite that, I still prefer fore torps for the reasons I've discussed before.

 

But it is just my personal preference, and your proposal make sense too.

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The fore torpedoes are good on approach. After approach, you are working to line up your broadsides for maximum effect, making fore torpedoes much less effective.

I am looking at this ship later in the game, not turn 1 or 2 when PD is still at its highest.

 

I like the thought behind this. Making the ship a late game brawler. I just wonder if she will be there to use those torpedoes late in the game. That approach completely relies on speed, durability, and maneuverability. All of which are in doubt right now.

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