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Imperiums, man, how do they work?

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The fact that opposing players ingnore a carrier in range wich they can draw a LOS to is not typical! That is very special. Nothing you can count on unless you only play with the same few guys or one guy every time. Maybe they ignore you carrier because they figured they actually can ignore it because its not a real threat since they know you playstyle inside out too.

My experience are different. Such a juicy and soft target wouldn't be ignored. I also woundn't ignore it.

If you have 2 squadrons of Arminius range within boarding range of your dreadnought, and you shoot a carrier instead of them, you are about to lose your dreadnought.

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So lets bring in a scenario...

 

You are comparing 325 pts worth of ships (125 Rhine, 100 each Squadron of Arminus) with a unit worth from 45 to 95 Pts less. In this scenario the DN is at a significant disadvantage anyways. This wouldn't change at all if we switch the Rhine for an Imperium. This would be the right comparison. Not what would the DN do but what will actually happen to your units.

In any case the DN would struggle to crit an Imperium with its main guns if it is obscured. While it will have no difficulties of critting the Rhine.

If a undamaged DN really will loose depends on a lot of things. Which DN exactly. Who is going to activate first. Is the turn going to end befor the Arminius can activate etc etc

 

This kind scenario is not really meaningful. Since its entirely arbitrary and deliberatly geared to make the Rhine look good. From my experience such a situation is not realistic for an actual game.

 

 

If you have 2 squadrons of Arminius range within boarding range of your dreadnought, and you shoot a carrier instead of them, you are about to lose your dreadnought.

 

And of course the DN is entirely alone and the Arminius just appear out of no where in boarding range.

Even if... assuming the DN activates befor the Arminius. The DN shoots the Arminius up so they can't successfull board it anymore if they survive at all... and then what? The Rhine will make the DN disappear with its amazing firepower during its activation... A Rhine is no serious threat to a DN. Not even if undamaged in RB1 with its tesla. In its next turn the DN can completly focus on sinking the Rhine.

Getting into boarding range is the tricky part. If you really manage to get two squadrons of boarders completly unscathed into boarding range of a DN you have allready won the game by out maneuvering your opponend. What he shoots at is not really important anymore.

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And of course the DN is entirely alone and the Arminius just appear out of no where in boarding range.

Even if... assuming the DN activates befor the Arminius. The DN shoots the Arminius up so they can't successfull board it anymore if they survive at all... and then what? The Rhine will make the DN disappear with its amazing firepower during its activation... A Rhine is no serious threat to a DN. Not even if undamaged in RB1 with its tesla. In its next turn the DN can completly focus on sinking the Rhine.

Getting into boarding range is the tricky part. If you really manage to get two squadrons of boarders completly unscathed into boarding range of a DN you have allready won the game by out maneuvering your opponend. What he shoots at is not really important anymore.

You said: My experience are different. Such a juicy and soft target wouldn't be ignored. I also woundn't ignore it.

 

But you would ignore it because there are more pressing targets to deal with. That is the point Heartbroken Tone makes.

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But you would ignore it because there are more pressing targets to deal with. That is the point Heartbroken Tone makes.

 

But the same is true for any other unit. That is nothing special for the Rhine. It would be the same if it was an Imperium and two squadrons of Arminius. Or even a squadron of Hussar (the flimsiest non boarding threat I can think off right now) and Arminius. Therefor I don't see where this is an exclusive pro Rhine argument.

The question in this case is what happens after the DN dealt with the boarding threat.

The Rhine would simply be screwed. Regardless if it closes in or runs it can't really do anything. An Imperium on the other had could move into RB1 and would become allmost untouchable for most DNs. Even if it needs two turns to reach RB1, so the DN has a full activation to fire at it, its unlikely that the DN will shoot it down. Once the Imperium is in RB1 the fun starts. AD12 bombs are nothing a DN can ignore.

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I'd ignore an Imperium more than a Rhine, though. If that's the argument for why a Rhine is more survivable, it doesn't make sense, because the Imperium actually being far tougher for a meagre points increase increases the real and perceived resilience it has.

 

Because while I can kill a Rhine without too much problem, it's really quite hard to kill an Imperium. CR 6, CR 10, 10 HP, can go obscured, can't be hit in RB1 with naval weapons, can't be torpedoed, only hit on a 5+ by TFT bombers... it's a difficult ship to take down.

 

There are many scenarios when I'd want to kill a Rhine, though. If I need VPs. If I need to destroy all large and massives as my objective. If I need to destroy all naval stuff as my objective. I can choose to kill a Rhine, if I need to. It's not hard. It's relying on me not want to do that in order to survive. That gives me choices. That lessens the pressure. Maybe I don't want to kill that Rhine, but I could if I needed to. The Imperium? I am going to have to invest in destroying that. I am going to have the make that choice early on.

 

And to be quite frank, that is an entirely manufactured scenario. In that circumstance (which has already seen me play like a fool, it seems, but whatever), I wouldn't shoot a Rhine, and I wouldn't shoot an Imperium either... unless I only need a hundred VPs to win the game (and how many games come down to that in turn three? Quite a few...), or I need to destroy all naval/large and massives. In those cases, the Rhine isn't too hard to kill. My Covenant Dread can do it easy. Rolls up, target paints, three main turrets each rolling 12 dice on 4's and a broadside of 12 hitting on threes. Dead in a single round. Imperium? No, I don't think so. Can't target it in RB1. In R2, my firepower is far less effective, and I need to get more successes. So assuming my most devastating ship is right there, one activation before it's inevitable death to boarding, if you took a Rhine, you just lost, but if you paid 10pts for an Imperium, you just won.

 

All the above shows is that I can make up scenarios as well. But seriously, I don't see how a Rhine is somehow more resilient than an Imperium, when your defences are working on the idea it's not worth shooting. The Imperium is much, much more not worth shooting in that case.

 

Alright if you want to take the tack that the Rhine has more firepower, now we are talking. That's true. The Rhine has bigger Teslas in RB 1 and 2 (though none at RB 3 and 4) and a bigger front gun. But it also can be screened against, which the Imperium can't, the Imperium's fore gun is redoubtable with lethal strike (and will be reduced less by damage due to being on a bigger hull), and can benefit from lightning rod markers, with devastating ordnance boosting it up to Rhine levels on average in that case. So that's a debate. But in terms of resilience? No way.

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All the above shows is that I can make up scenarios as well. But seriously, I don't see how a Rhine is somehow more resilient than an Imperium, when your defences are working on the idea it's not worth shooting. The Imperium is much, much more not worth shooting in that case.

You aren't getting my point about the difference between shear survivability (one inherited in the stats) and forced survivability (Where through general gameplay you force your opponent to focus on other, more immediate threats)

 

Yes, the imperium is tougher to take out. But just by playing the game in a certain way, you can make the Rhine less of a target and stay on the table (and thus survive) just as long as the Imperium can if it was constantly being shot at during the game.

In effect, the difference between the Imperium having superior defensive stats to the Rhine is effectively nulled.

 

Now, if you consider that the superior defensive stats are null and void, what does the Imperium have over the Rhine? Nothing. The Rhine still has superior firepower in all range bands.

And while Obscured, the Imperium can only hit a target on a 6. So for at least three turns in a 1000pt game, you are effectively playing with 865pts list (I do believe that that is worse than the 875pts you'd be wasting if you kept the Rhine back, is it not?). The Imperium is useless to you while it is obscured, and if you bring it out of the clouds just to shoot its going to suffer for it.

Lightning rod or not, the Imperium's Teslas aren't going to be of much use to you until you get to RB2.

 

The Rhine, by contrast is not hindered by this. No matter where you have it, its always hitting on a 5+

 

Also, I am going to assume that you aren't taking the fact that your opponent can make you deploy on the 4' edge of the table. In that scenario, the Imperium has lost all value, and you are effectively playing that game without 135pts, because the Imperium is not going to be able to play any role in it.

Again, this is where the Rhine has the advantage.

 

1) it's never going to be shot at.

2) it has the longer ranged gun giving it the real potential of contributing to the game (something the Imperium just can't)

 

 

We can go back and forward on this as much as we like. But at the end of the day, I know your wrong* and you think I'm wrong. Lets end this with a agree to disagree.

 

*My experiences with them lets me know this. You don't play with the Prussians. You said so yourself. So you can't know what they are like. You are going by your experiences against them and how your opponent uses them. Not really the same thing when it comes to this sort of argument.

 

 

@schnursi

I don't like you enough to even bother dealing with your comments.

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Also, I am going to assume that you aren't taking the fact that your opponent can make you deploy on the 4' edge of the table. In that scenario, the Imperium has lost all value, and you are effectively playing that game without 135pts, because the Imperium is not going to be able to play any role in it.

Again, this is where the Rhine has the advantage.

 

Then you deploy the Imperium to be a flanker (something the Rhine can't do as massive non flyer-), and come in obscured, with lots of elite crew AP, as well as the TFTs.  The rhine definitley has the advantage there.... :wacko:

 

 

 

Heartbroken Tone76, on 17 Sept 2013 - 10:49 PM, said:

We can go back and forward on this as much as we like. But at the end of the day, I know your wrong* and you think I'm wrong. Lets end this with a agree to disagree.

 

*My experiences with them lets me know this. You don't play with the Prussians. You said so yourself. So you can't know what they are like. You are going by your experiences against them and how your opponent uses them. Not really the same thing when it comes to this sort of argument.

 

 

@schnursi

I don't like you enough to even bother dealing with your comments.

 

End quote.

 

Are you trying to get yourself banned again?

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The most successful way I fielded the Imperium was together with a Rhine. Fielding two carriers makes recycling inevitable. So a carrier with high survivability is most welcome. It can also be a great place for the field commodore.

For example in this list the Imperium+Rhine combination is much better than the Rhine+Rhine combination:

800pts:

1xRhine

1xImperium

2xKoenigsberger

3xFull squad of Arminius/Saxony

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Then you deploy the Imperium to be a flanker (something the Rhine can't do as massive non flyer-), and come in obscured, with lots of elite crew AP, as well as the TFTs.  The rhine definitley has the advantage there.... :wacko:

 

 

 

Heartbroken Tone76, on 17 Sept 2013 - 10:49 PM, said:

We can go back and forward on this as much as we like. But at the end of the day, I know your wrong* and you think I'm wrong. Lets end this with a agree to disagree.

 

*My experiences with them lets me know this. You don't play with the Prussians. You said so yourself. So you can't know what they are like. You are going by your experiences against them and how your opponent uses them. Not really the same thing when it comes to this sort of argument.

 

 

@schnursi

I don't like you enough to even bother dealing with your comments.

 

End quote.

 

Are you trying to get yourself banned again?

And if you don't use the advanced deployment rules?? Why is it assumed that it is in widespread use? Its not a mandatory rule. So bringing it into this discussion means nothing.

When it becomes part of the core rules, come back with that argument.

 

 

And, again?? :huh:

 

I'm trying to save schnursei from wasting his time typing out lots of text for a response that I am not going to give him. A message has to be sent, and there's no easy way to do that.

And besides, I sent him a PM and he felt the need to post that PM on the forum. In my view, he lost all rights to me being civil towards him.

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You aren't getting my point about the difference between shear survivability (one inherited in the stats) and forced survivability (Where through general gameplay you force your opponent to focus on other, more immediate threats)

 

Yes, the imperium is tougher to take out. But just by playing the game in a certain way, you can make the Rhine less of a target and stay on the table (and thus survive) just as long as the Imperium can if it was constantly being shot at during the game.

 

You

 

You can do that with the Imperium as well.

 

And because it is tougher, it is better at it.

 

The Imperium is strictly, undeniably tougher than the Rhine. That is a fact. It is right there on the numbers in the profile. If your plan is based around not making it worth shooting your carrier, then if you take a carrier that is even harder to kill, you are reinforcing that concept. You are making your opponent's decisions for them. If I need to kill a Rhine, I can do so a lot easier than I can an Imperium. Because Imperiums are hard to kill and Rhine's aren't, not really. DR 5 CR 8 with 7 HP and no defensive generators is barely tougher than a gunboat or battlecruiser.

 

I don't see how you can argue that a Rhine is equally resilient as an Imperium when the Imperium is, as clearly evidenced by it's vital statistics, more resilient. Your entire theory here is based on the concept that nobody will shoot at the Rhine, but people will. They'll see it for what it is, a VP opportunity. When you get into turn three and you know that what you need right now is VPs, you won't look at an Imperium, but a Rhine is a viable target.

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I don't see how you can argue that a Rhine is equally resilient as an Imperium when the Imperium is, as clearly evidenced by it's vital statistics, more resilient. Your entire theory here is based on the concept that nobody will shoot at the Rhine, but people will. They'll see it for what it is, a VP opportunity. When you get into turn three and you know that what you need right now is VPs, you won't look at an Imperium, but a Rhine is a viable target.

Because through clever gameplay, you can keep the Rhine alive for just as long as the Imperium can stay alive just by being tougher to damage.

 

I was not suggesting that the Rhine is magically just as tough as the Imperium. I was suggesting that the Rhine is just as survivable as the Imperium, while still being of more tactical use than the Imperium could ever be.

 

Throughout the game, you can avert your opponent's attentions for a fair amount of time, away from the Rhine where it can be of great use to you. Shooting at whatever you can get your FC bombard to target (which for me is a lot) from the start of the game.

 

In contrast, the Imperium hides in the clouds for at least three turns, doing nothing for you until it reaches RB2 at the very least and drops from the sky. That's at least three turns where you are without 135pts of your list. The Rhine is there from the very beginning pulling it's weight.

 

How can something that performs throughout a game be worse than a unit that starts to perform very late, where the game is effectively won or lost?

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Right

 

I am stopping with this now because you are not reading people's posts fully, just taking bits out of context and arguing with that, so this is kind of pointless. If you want to have an actual discussion, read the full post, actually see why my point is, and then get back to me. I know exactly what you are saying, and I disagree, but you do not seem to actually be understanding what I am saying, and life is too short to repeat myself ad infinatum.

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Wow. As a Prussian player who frequently uses both an Imperium and a Rhine, I find the Imperium is vastly superior.

As to fire power the imperium's fore Tesla whilst it rolls less dice than the bombard doesn't shed AD as fast and with lightning rods making more of an appearance these days means it can even be effective while obscured. Also with the new arcs on Tesla weapons the other day I managed to fire all three of it's teslas and it's AA in the same turn, the fact that the broadsides roll dice in rb3 is icing on the cake.

Cost, well yes you can take a konni for less. I personally like to take both and do a little happy dance when people fire at the 5+ to hit blimp not the glass jawed medium section, I actively encourage opponents to do so, taking that first HP damage and knowing it doesn't affect combat effectiveness a jot.

Movement, the imperium can hide behind a large island immune to fire while able to shoot, it can't collide with a frigate screen, it doesn't have to brave a reef. At deployment you can put down a blimp and know exactly where it will be by turn 4.

Defenses, immune to torpedoes, hit on a 5+ unless you choose it, more Dr cr and HP. Can hide behind large islands and still hit on a 4+.

Boarding, more resilience means less chance of a raging fire or hard pounding. Elite crew makes the blimp an excellent finisher to follow up the first and second waves especially with it's lethal strike in earlier turns. There are many occasions where I've won a game by a late game boarding by a blimp, the Rhine... not so much.

As to the rhine, the bombard rolls a lot of dice in rb 2, a konni rolls more, gets there faster and has more weapons. I don't tend to take carriers for firepower, that's what fun ships and battleships are for,I take carriers to soak damage and launch planes something I feel the sky fortress is better at. The comment that you've never had a Rhine sunk I can easily meet with I've never had an Imperium shot down, however I have had a Rhine mag explosioned on turn 1 by Japanese rockets due to being hit on 4's with less AA and a lower CR. I can see that the Rhine is at least part of the core force, but unless I'm short on points it's the blimp hands down for me.

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Anyway to answer the OP I low to run an imperium with some spear launcher units to reduce an intended target with lethal strike and make the most out of the Tesla coils, I tend to start the imperium on a flank, it's quite a tasty target to fire at rather than it's annoyingly hard to hit corvette backup. These days I tend to run torp bombers which can either hunt threatening squadrons in the imperium's region or be used to soften a large for boarding. I use the fore Tesla to remove escorts on the turn I board a parent ship, overall the imperium should be considered a turn 3 finisher, even at half HP it is a threat which can't really be ignored due to it's high elite crew ap and redoubtable firepower, you may even at some point get to bomb with it. Against tfts at full health the imperium is near untouchable with it's 7 AA, good CR and the bonuses of being a flyer, I find as such it needs little support.

Hope this helps.

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@Solar

I did not focus on the first half of you comment because I am not disagreeing with any of that. I never said that the imperium wasnt tougher. I said it several times that its stats were superior.

I was t disagreeing with that so I wasnt arguing against that.

What I had a problem with was your assertion that the Rhine is just sinkable and so worse than the imperium. When its not.

Through clever use of gameplay, a player can avert the opponents attention, which means that he will nit be able to focus on the Rhine at all. Which means that a 125pts model is left to do whatever it likes for a good portion of the game.

If the opponent hasn't been shooting at the Rhine from the beginning of the game, the carrier will still be at full effective use well into turn 4.

For 10pts less, you can have a vessel that is performing from the start of the game, and can easily have a full HP vessel in turn 4 still capable of dealing good amount of damage to your opponents fleet.

whereas, the imperium is staying in the clouds, no contributing anything until turn 3 or 4, thus making it inferior to the Rhine, for 10pts more.

If you refuse to see that, well I can't help you.

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@Heartbroken

 

This is not the only way to play it. For some tactics you need a Carrier that can stand at the front-line recycling tiny flier (the list I posted earlier in this thread is an example of it.). In this case you can't hold it back because the TFT need to be recycled as fast as possible.

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@Drachenfutter: How do you hide behind a large island and still fire with the Imperium? Terrain blocks LOS both ways in that case.

 

I tend to find both the Imperium and the Rhine difficult to use because they are too slow. In the case of the Imperium it is made worse by the terrible turning profile, where at least the Rhine is somewhat serviceable.

 

The bombs on the Imperium are virtually impossible to use unless your opponent makes a mistake. You physically can't fly the Imperium over models unless you start within an inch of the model because the base of the Imperium is 4" long and it only moves 6". The terrible turning profile also makes it hard to swing your aft around to get the bombs off. The Tesla weaponry is now a lot easier to use, but is largely secondary to its carrier role.

 

The Rhine is no where near as tough as the Imperium and is a fairly easy nut to crack. That said though, I often find opponents have more pressing matters to attend to which leaves the Rhine to amble in in turn 3 or so with some fairly devastating Tesla. If it isn't sunk, it is still pushing out 9AD. The Rhine being Massive also allows it LOS shenanigans where it can see over mediums but can't be seen back so I don't find its relative squishiness that much of an issue. It is arguably a better carrier due to Deck Crews allowing you to get back an extra TFT.

 

To be honest, one of the best ways to use the Imperium is to try and fool your opponent into trying to kill it. It has a ton of HP and decent DR/CR. Otherwise just use it as a carrier.

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"Los between a model on the surface and a model that is flying or obscured can only be blocked by obstructing terrain that has a large or massive surface height."

Los is not reciprocal, thus as it does not say that line of sight from a flying or obscured model to the surface level is only blocked by terrain with large or massive surface height or even just "and visa versa" they can get away with it. A loophole I personally despise and hope to see vanish in 2.0.

As to the bombs, well they are certainly on the model... And on the model is where they will remain, I think I,be managed to drop the bombs maybe three times in total.

Overall I simply find that the survivability and late game boarding while being better disposed to defend itself from close boarders and TFTs make the imperium worth considerably more than 10 points more than the Rhine, the fact that too me it's almost always the start of any list I write reinforces this.

As to deck crews, meh. If I'm going to be launching tiny flyers again it'll be turn 3 usually, and if I had the Rhine and the best thing it could do on turn 3 is launch TFTs instead of fire it's broadsides then I'm playing Prussians wrong.

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Winter's comment sums up what I've found to date, which is why I was hoping there was another approach I hadn't tried yet.

 

I certainly know the value of cycling TFs, which I manage to pull off to useful effect often enough, but I normally look for something in addition to that to justify the cost of the average carrier, and that's where the Imperium seems to come short.  I definitely think it has the survivability advantage over the Rhine, in spades; the number of times I've actually managed to take down an Imperium, I could count on the fingers of one hand of a blind carpenter.  But I can't count on my opponents continuing to target it, because the smart play is to ignore it in all its pillow-fisted inoffensiveness, and my opponents can be counted upon to make smart plays.

 

I actually think a tesla generator would answer a lot of the problems with this model, giving it extra speed to move up to support TF cycling and give you an extended, and sometimes usefully unpredictable, threat range for opportunistic boarding and re-boarding.  In the absence of that, though, I guess I'm stuck running it aggressively forward and hoping I get lucky with boarding ranges.  

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"Los between a model on the surface and a model that is flying or obscured can only be blocked by obstructing terrain that has a large or massive surface height."

Los is not reciprocal, thus as it does not say that line of sight from a flying or obscured model to the surface level is only blocked by terrain with large or massive surface height or even just "and visa versa" they can get away with it. A loophole I personally despise and hope to see vanish in 2.0.

 

I have always taken the rules as specified with regards to intervening terrain to be reciprocal because it says that the LOS is between the models.

 

The not reciprocal LOS I always took to be that you might have a model that could shoot over an intervening model due to size, but models may not always be able to shoot back

 

Do you also play it that flyers are unable to shoot over intervening surface models unless the sizes rule applies?

 

Might have a search in the rules forum to see if this has been addressed.

 

Edit: it would appear that I am correct in that LOS to flyers is reciprocal. So you can't hide a flyer behind large islands

http://community.spartangames.co.uk/index.php?/topic/6060-flying-units-are-blocked-by-terrain/?hl=%20flyer%20%20terrain

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I can't say I'm convinced by that thread, however your point about the use of the word between does give me some confidence, I'll have to put it to my gaming group or drop an email to Spartan for a clarification as I feel that sentence is overly vague. As too models, no it specifically cites that terrain blocks los. I would however like that to happen at some point as it would allow people to screen their escorts in the shadow of the ship they are protecting.

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If you get a response back, please let us know.

 

I'm not sure if you answered my query regarding surface models blocking LoS from flyers to other surface models. If you use the same interpretation that you have been using for large/massive terrain, it would follow that surface ships can fire over other surface ships at flyers, but flyers are unable to do the same back (because the rule uses the same between terminology with the surface model once again listed first meaning that like how the terrain blocking only effects the first models LOS, the benefit of being able to shoot over other surface models only effects the first models LOS). How is your group playing things with regards to that?

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I believe it says very directly in the rulebook that "line of sight is not reciprocal." I have always taken it to be the case that flyers can see surface models but not vice versa. On the other hand, it is a poorly laid out paragraph and could do with a clearer wording. Hardly alone there, in the DW rulebook.

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