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DanJ

Thoughts on New Rules

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I've just downloaded the new rules and so far I'm not terribly impressed, main gripes to date

 

1)The printing the PDF will eat print cartridges, can't we have a B&W printer friendly version?

 

2) Command Points, these were a nice touch but now only getting the CP for models with the HQ MAR has dramtically reduced their usefulness basically the only things I can see CPs being used for in the future will be artillery spotting.  With only a handfull available there's no point in investing in Command Abilities or trying to influence initiative. 
 

I'm playing a 4000 per side game on Saturday, currently I'll be generating 24 CP under the new rules I'll get 11 not much for 8 formations and 80 models.Six of these would be used up every turn just trying to spot targets and another couple if I want to attach dedicated spotter units to formations.  Use a command ability? forget it.  And it's worse for the Russians who seem to have almost no HQ units and poor crews.

 

3) Lack of consistency for HQ MARs, the Soverign has HQ2 but the Bastille HQ1, even worse if a British Tank Battalion is commanded by a Steward Guardian Tank it gets HQ1, A French Tank Battalion commanded by A Char 1C Heavy tank gets 0 for the same points cost, this is starting to smack of Francophobia.

 

4) The EoBS units haven't been re-pointed, they're too cheap.

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I still regularly get pasted by FSA forces with my EotBS forces, so still have issues with the 'there too cheap' comments, especially with the rule changes effective CP, as you never have spare CP for anything as it goes to the Artillery units. Agree that the changes to HQ on vehicles appear 'haphazard'- the Washington with HQ 2 is lethal, when backed up with artillery and a Reno (they out shot an EotBS Bombardment Regiment of similar points in at 1500pt game). And most of these changes are without points modification. Washington now 190pts (HQ 2, 16Blue at 16"), Heavy (Gun) EotBS Walker 170pts (HQ 1, 9Red at 16", 8blue rocket - which require spotting rolls and get shot down/3 success on 3Red). Regularly lose that fight.

But overall I like them (I've played games with around 30 CP in the pool, and as a result almost all spotting tests were being taken on 4Red die (EotBS, so start on 3Red with the Heavy Walker). Both the person I played against and myself felt that it made the game more tactical as forward planning was much more required - Special Manoeuvre Command Ability does not cost CP (just 2 successes) and allows a possible free card. Aslo some cards are CP 0 to use - just means you have to plan.

The one thing we both decided on though, was that 1500pts is far to small, we are looking at 2000pts as a base, and hopefully will play at around 3000-4000pts as standard.

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I've just downloaded the new rules and so far I'm not terribly impressed, main gripes to date

 

2) Command Points, these were a nice touch but now only getting the CP for models with the HQ MAR has dramtically reduced their usefulness basically the only things I can see CPs being used for in the future will be artillery spotting.  With only a handfull available there's no point in investing in Command Abilities or trying to influence initiative. 

 

I'm playing a 4000 per side game on Saturday, currently I'll be generating 24 CP under the new rules I'll get 11 not much for 8 formations and 80 models.Six of these would be used up every turn just trying to spot targets and another couple if I want to attach dedicated spotter units to formations.  Use a command ability? forget it.  And it's worse for the Russians who seem to have almost no HQ units and poor crews.

 

Ah, i was wondering. I just went into Armoured Clash after reading through the Sirocco book.- and ordered the Prussian an KoB brigades outright. I searched the Forums an was puzzeled when there were battle reports with lots of Command Points on both sides wether i figured out afther downloading the army lists that the starter armies just have 2 (PE) resp. 3 (KoB) CP.

 

And since i started with the updated rules i can't say anything about changes that Sparten has made apperently.

 

But the first Impression with the AC rules is quite positive.

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I must really say, I haven't reached all changes from beta to now, but I think the change of bilding the commandpool was a little extreme.

 

Okay, 9 Point with 3 Formations like in the beta rules, was a little much. But now I think it's a little less. I think one point per Formation + H.Q. (Value) would be fair.

It would be a real problem for Russian Coalition because they need the Command Points to increase there Disordertests.

The only good thing I in this case I have seen is that the full steam ahead move doesn't cost Commandpoints anymore. (For more things I have to search more)

 

 

...

 

2) Command Points, these were a nice touch but now only getting the CP for models with the HQ MAR has dramtically reduced their usefulness basically the only things I can see CPs being used for in the future will be artillery spotting.  With only a handfull available there's no point in investing in Command Abilities or trying to influence initiative. 
 

I'm playing a 4000 per side game on Saturday, currently I'll be generating 24 CP under the new rules I'll get 11 not much for 8 formations and 80 models.Six of these would be used up every turn just trying to spot targets and another couple if I want to attach dedicated spotter units to formations.  Use a command ability? forget it.  And it's worse for the Russians who seem to have almost no HQ units and poor crews.

 

3) Lack of consistency for HQ MARs, the Soverign has HQ2 but the Bastille HQ1, even worse if a British Tank Battalion is commanded by a Steward Guardian Tank it gets HQ1, A French Tank Battalion commanded by A Char 1C Heavy tank gets 0 for the same points cost, this is starting to smack of Francophobia.

 

4) The EoBS units haven't been re-pointed, they're too cheap.

 

2) Please tell me when you had 8 formations, because when I read the rules for Brigades correctly, you must fill one brigade with 6 Formations to start a new brigade and the second one must have 3 formations.

 

3) Thats a true problem, because the RoF has many Units with Bombardement rule, that needs a Spotting Unit (so it has to spend commandopoints for them). Its the same problem with EoBS.

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2) Please tell me when you had 8 formations, because when I read the rules for Brigades correctly, you must fill one brigade with 6 Formations to start a new brigade and the second one must have 3 formations.

 

3) Thats a true problem, because the RoF has many Units with Bombardement rule, that needs a Spotting Unit (so it has to spend commandopoints for them). Its the same problem with EoBS.

 

Hi,

 

We may have mised the rule about a Brigade having a max of 6 formations but at the moment for my 4000 point French Army I'll be fielding:

 

Legion Armoured Regiment - Combat Formation - 630 points including 'For The Cause'

Legion Armoured Regiment - Combat Formation - 630 points including 'For The Cause'

Legion Armoured Regiment - Combat Formation - 630 points including 'For The Cause'

 

Heavy Tank Regiment - Support Formation - 260 points including 'On to Glory'

Mobile Air Defence Regiment - Support Formation - 400 points including 'On to Glory'

 

Heavy Assault Command Detachment - Corps Asset - 400 points including 'On to Glory'

Aerial Strike Asset - Corps Asset  - 650 points including 'On to Glory'

Aerial Command Regiment - Corps Asset - 380 points including 'On to Glory'

 

Currently with 24 CP this feels like it is balanced and has potential but 11 CP would make life difficult.

 

I think there's an anomaly in the French List (and possibly others) in that the Legion Armoured Regiment can have an integrated artillery which is very nice but there is no integrated spotter units.  So I've either got to use recce flyers from other formations as attachments which takes time and CPs or rely on my iron clads which are poor so I've got to shove in two or three CPs to have a reasonable change of a successful spot.

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Ah okay, I see. if you split the aerial Strike Regiment into two formations the List will be legal.

 

Like I said in my last post. I think, generating cp only with H.Q. is a little less. Either each Command Unit must give one or more point or each Formation must generate one Point + H.Q. Value.

 

With the 2nd version you would have 20 Points in a legal list or when I think for a little game with 3 formations there would be 5-6 Points instead of 2-3.

 

I don't know what SG thought when they made the CP from a little much to nearly useless.

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Hey, I found one thing for the RoF. There is a change of the Rule of the Reconnaisesance Squadron.

You don't need to make a command Test anymore to attach reconplanes to other Formations. So for this, you don't have to spend CP anymore (like for Full steam ahead).

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The big problem I see now with new rules is you activate move and fire a hole formation then the opponent move and fire hole formation. This could lead to it Being a must to take big formation so you wipe opponents formation in one go with out a reaction. I feel this going down a bad road. One I really don't like that I move all mine you move all yours etc. this take a way one of the main things I like about dystopian wars alternating activation ( if not full ) . Yes I know it will speed things up but I feel it will loss to much tactics

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The big problem I see now with new rules is you activate move and fire a hole formation then the opponent move and fire hole formation. This could lead to it Being a must to take big formation so you wipe opponents formation in one go with out a reaction. I feel this going down a bad road. One I really don't like that I move all mine you move all yours etc. this take a way one of the main things I like about dystopian wars alternating activation ( if not full ) . Yes I know it will speed things up but I feel it will loss to much tactics

Activate single battalions instead of whole regiments? You could alternate activating battalions while still having to stay within the regiment until all the battalions/companies have moved before turning another activation card.

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@McKinstry

I think you are meaning "Activate single battalions instead of whole formations".

 

@Druss

Thanks for telling, I must have overread it. That is really bad. I also liked the form of activating one battalion that the enemy activating one and again more.

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Guest John Bull

Yes it is a big change in the activation phase it maybe to speed up large games which the rules are aimed at. It would have been nice if Spartan had actually posted an article on the changes from the beta version and why changes were made.

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Woah!

I didn't spot the fundamental change in activation order at all?! So now whole formations alternate as opposed to individual battalions within a formation.

I agree that does make everything feel far more "igo-ugo,"a feature Dystopian Wars and the original AC rules do/did very well to mitigate against.

I suppose in smaller games it would still be viable to alternate battalion activations though without "breaking" the rules though?

Cheers

Andy

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@McKinstry

I think you are meaning "Activate single battalions instead of whole formations".

 

@Druss

Thanks for telling, I must have overread it. That is really bad. I also liked the form of activating one battalion that the enemy activating one and again more.

 

Yes. It would preclude the worst of the 'gotcha' effects where multiple battalions fire before the other side can respond, potentially wiping out a formation or rendering so few survivors as to be toothless. Winning initiative should be good but not decisive.

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I can only think the change to alternating whole formation activations was to facilitate quicker play in larger games?

Can anyone from Spartan or the beta test team shine any more light on the rationale for the change? It does make the impact of winning/losing initiative more devastating...

Cheers

Andy

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Page nine, model types adds 'warship' to the list. The decision to Fly High takes place at the beginning of the activation. It's harder to spot while flying high. Disorder markers lower the dice colour of disorder checks. Bombers can't outflank. It doesn't cost a command point to go Full Steam Ahead. 'Height level and command' was corrected for Flying High units. The mines WAR was improved. Scenario 'Take and Hold' got the wrong deployment picture. There's a new command ability.

 

3) Lack of consistency for HQ MARs, the Soverign has HQ2 but the Bastille HQ1, even worse if a British Tank Battalion is commanded by a Steward Guardian Tank it gets HQ1, A French Tank Battalion commanded by A Char 1C Heavy tank gets 0 for the same points cost, this is starting to smack of Francophobia.

 

It's not so bad, the Antarctica and Prussian starter boxes now have only a single command point. The French get five.

 

I feel command points are going to heavily restrict what formations people want to take in their armies, which is a bad thing. I also don't like the look of whole formations moving, shooting, boarding at once. I enjoyed the quick back-and-forth of single battalions activating.

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Page nine, model types adds 'warship' to the list. The decision to Fly High takes place at the beginning of the activation. It's harder to spot while flying high. Disorder markers lower the dice colour of disorder checks. Bombers can't outflank. It doesn't cost a command point to go Full Steam Ahead. 'Height level and command' was corrected for Flying High units. The mines WAR was improved. Scenario 'Take and Hold' got the wrong deployment picture. There's a new command ability.

 

 

It's not so bad, the Antarctica and Prussian starter boxes now have only a single command point. The French get five.

 

I feel command points are going to heavily restrict what formations people want to take in their armies, which is a bad thing. I also don't like the look of whole formations moving, shooting, boarding at once. I enjoyed the quick back-and-forth of single battalions activating.

Okay thanks for the list of changings. The Part with Attaching Reconplanes and the change of the Breaktest is missing.

 

But I see the CP Values there is something wrong.

 

The following list is the min-max Value of all 7 Core Nations with the Armoured Brigadeboxes

RoF: 4-5 (4 if you use all Heavy Tanks in one Formation and, one Landship to the Dalton, or 5 if the Heavy Armoured Regiment was split into 2 and the Dalton stand alone)

KoB: 2-4

PE: 2 (Metzger has also H.Q. 1)

EoBS: 3-4

FSA: 3

RC: 2 (Really bad deployment for Starting, with weak quality and a Bombardement Unit)

CoA: 1 (only the Drone Controller has HQ Value, bad start because the Bombards can't used. The Drones need the Point to Act. Change the Worm with the Large Walker and the List will have 2 CP)

 

I think there was something oversight, because when we look to the Betaversion rules. Each of the shown brigades had between 7-10 Command Points (when Formations produce 2 CP).

 

Only one point per formation and every nation would have something to act with.

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Unless there is at least one point per formation the game is not going to move/play/flow as I think it was intended. Artillery for most becomes difficult to use, a hand full of 5 cards is relatively useless when the average cost is two CP and that in turn makes the radio MAR fairly impotent as well.

I think something got left out by accident.

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CoA: 1 (only the Drone Controller has HQ Value, bad start because the Bombards can't used. The Drones need the Point to Act. Change the Worm with the Large Walker and the List will have 2 CP)

 

 

 

Drones only ever need to spend a CP to act if all your drone controllers have been destroyed.

 

 

Yes - I find it particularly surprising that a bombardment-based formation, which by default relies on Spotting, generates no CPs itself (e.g. Prussian Mobile Artillery).

 

 

 

I see your point but the Prussian Artillery formation is an odd one as the Speershleuders can add spotting markers without need for a spotting test. Admittedly it can be a tall order for 4AD to damage bigger things but it can help.

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Guest John Bull

The brigade boxes where probably designed before the new version of armoured clash. I have not bought any because I had models from Dystopian Wars.

Looking back over the posts I see little problems with the beta test version and although the printed version has improvents and clarifications with more examples the change to activation has made quite a difference to the game.

The silence from Spartan Games is deafining. I repeat there should have been an article on why such a big change given the impact on the game and why they think it is a good idea.

This is not the way to treat customers and build a bigger base playing the game. As shown above the Brigade boxes are not an investment you would want given the change to command points.

These rules are no longer in a test face when you publish them in print in the Sirrocco book.

I made a mistake in deleting the beta version so my thanks to the above posters for the heads upon the changes.

The revised download no longer has the token sheets that the beta version has and the only way to get them is in the Brigade boxes.

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Okay thanks for the list of changings. The Part with Attaching Reconplanes and the change of the Breaktest is missing.

 

But I see the CP Values there is something wrong.

 

I didn't see those or the HQ (1) MAR on the Metzger, thanks. I read the RoF get five command points if you assign all the Char heavy tanks to one formation - the Legion Armoured is led by a Bastille; the Heavy Armoured is led by a Bastille; and the Heavy Assault Command is led by the Danton with a non-contributing Bastille, making three formations with five command points.

 

I see your point but the Prussian Artillery formation is an odd one as the Speershleuders can add spotting markers without need for a spotting test. Admittedly it can be a tall order for 4AD to damage bigger things but it can help.

 

I don't feel it's any help at all. Four blue dice is unlikely to damage anything but infantry. The Recke is not reliable enough as a spotter to avoid having to assign a command point to the battalion, unless the Recke is within eight inches of what it's trying to spot, which the owner shouldn't allow because the Recke needs to be protected as the command unit.

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Looks like the Spotting rule wasn't updated with the new formation activation rules, it's not clear if the spotting attempt is made at the start of the formation's ranged sequence or just before the spotting battalion conducts its own attacks.

 

The field guns are a separate battalion from the Recke, anyway, despite being taken as the regimental HQ, and only the Recke is the command unit. In game terms they're treated as having the same relationship with the Recke as any other battalion in the formation, so there's nothing stopping them from making their ranged attack after the Recke does.

 

e: The rules don't prevent you declaring bombardment attacks against units with no spotting markers, they prevent you from making the attack later, from what I see

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I didn't see those or the HQ (1) MAR on the Metzger, thanks. I read the RoF get five command points if you assign all the Char heavy tanks to one formation - the Legion Armoured is led by a Bastille; the Heavy Armoured is led by a Bastille; and the Heavy Assault Command is led by the Danton with a non-contributing Bastille, making three formations with five command points.

 

If you are looking correctly, the normal Bastille 'N-5' Landship in the Heavy Assault Command Detachment hasn't the H.Q. MAR. Only the Commandunits has one, so the Brigade with 3 Formations has only 4 CP. The Bastilles in the other Units has the H.Q. MAR because they are the Commanders of Formations.

 

Edit:

Ah, okay I see I forgot to reprint the page. So the Dalton has H.Q. 3 now. So, RoF could have 5-6 CP with the Brigadebox.

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