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StealthSpider

Double 1's critical result

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Dangerous yes, but I want it to be a place where one janky roll doesn't cripple a fleet. Tactics and tough game play? Yes please. Random "d6, 4+ you lose 20% of your fleet"? No, please.

 

I have to be honest - "Roll 1d6 for movement then the Ship is pulled into FTL and is removed from play. Any ship within 2" of ship has to roll a d6 and of a 1 they are pulled into FTL with destroyed ship."

 

I'd be tempted to flip the table and use to hit my opponent with a rule like that! Not just no, hells no ;) - leave that horrible jank to WHFB (stupid 8th edition making me temporarily quit the game!).

 

Zak

Yes the chart we did was/is something different. More story telling . The last thing we want istable flipping.

It can always be redone.

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Yes the chart we did was/is something different. More story telling . The last thing we want istable flipping.

It can always be redone.

 

Yeessh my post sounded harsh, I should never post after building new furniture from Ikea for four hours...

 

Anyway, I get the idea of "cinematic events" I just think they're too game changing and too random and would honestly produce unhappy people who go from a "close awesome game" to "well, you got a crit first, I guess the games' now over".  Now most of your results aren't that bad (or are pretty rare results on the chart), but I do think that putting an over emphasis on crits is also a vast boon to longer ranged races and those with higher crit ratings and that's really unfair. Cinematic?  Maybe? But balanced? I have to be honest - not really.

 

Put it this way: As an RSN or Dindrenzi player who comes with an amazing high crit rating I'm safer from the effects (which is already true) and tons of long ranged punch now can I not only tag Aquans (or Directorate, or Khurak alliance) for maybe 2-3 points of damage, I can pulverize them if I roll on a random chart (having the effects be harsher means they're more important now that before).

 

I've seen that movie before - and it sucks ;). There are some cinematic events that I could live without. Also, as a short ranged player whose primary opponent is both Dindrenzi AND RSN loving ( :P) I have to often whittle his ships down one point at a time while he usually has 2x the number of crits I have (I often win by surviving enough that I can wade to the sides of him then start ripping his ships apart while his return fire withers). As it stands, with the table that a few of you think is "too light" I've had, in the last three games, two of them decided by crit results that cost either myself or my friend the game.

 

Having your Apollo lose all it's PD when it's slightly ahead of the fleet = instantly boarded by three Dindrenzi ships and taken from 1/2 hull to dead in two activations without him having to waste a shot at it. Get a crit on a Dindrenzi Conqueror and reduce it to half movement? Suddenly it doesn't have enough movement to bring its main gun around and finish off your BB on the last turn. Even subtle changes have a huge impact on the game and my friend thinks that table is too random and harsh. Let alone having a heavy cruiser get a reactor crit and having frigates double crit it with 10 hits!

 

The table you listed above? It feels (obviously) more punishing but in ways that I think just hurt some fleets too much and would swing the game too much too fast and too randomly.  Results like the extra crew loss would also affect some ships more than others.  Many ships have high crew but low AP numbers - make one of those lose 3 crew and their at -3 dice for the rest of the game.  Losing 3 AP from a Relthoza hurts your secondary attack plan but the ship itself is fine and can be repaired by tactical cards. Again, I'm not sure that's balanced.

 

YMMV, but that's really nothing I would want to play with (as it's written above) as I just see it being too random and leading to too many "well, you crit first, and rendered that squadron useless" moments.

 

Zak

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Not playing firestorm i don't have much weight in this but i understand the crit tables ar simular, With dw if I was to get rid of the 2 result (which I like the explosions as I don normally see loosing a section of a fleet to ruin my day just increases the challenge. (but then my wife is driven nuts by my lack of need to win.) but can see how people could have the problem with it. I would do the following...

2 or less: [0 HP] roll twice more on the critical effects table adding 1 to each result and apply the effects including HP loss

13 or more: [2 HP] model teleports asper twelve but a medium vortex is also placed where the model started.

This would make instant destruction less likely while also adding an effect for a 12s with +1 crit rolls

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Honestly, I moved house over a year ago, and I've not seen a snake eyes roll in a game since that time. I'd hardly call that an OP table or anything that needed nerfing.

It's something pretty clear in the thread- the desire to weaken it is directly proportional to how often the person sees that crit effect.

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600pts fleet, Terrans, mitigate losing a Large ship, I'll wait :P

Pok caustic and confrontational as always, lol. I think the point Alex is trying to make is that in the above Terran fleet that you have a 2.8 percent chance to loose that large ship. You have much higher odds of a random amount of exploding 6's taking it out first turn even without a critical hit...

 

Perhaps making the critical Hit Chart OPTIONAL would help? That way those of us who want to play with it could and those of you who feel it destroys strategy and tactics could play without it?

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Perhaps making the critical Hit Chart OPTIONAL would help?

Why? 11 out of 12 results on it are perfectly fine. No one has an issue with Weapon Damage or PD Offline. It's the one crit result that (as you so neatly demonstrated in your post) doubles the function of rolling a ton of hits-because as you said, you can kill a ship in one turn already by rolling enough AD from exploding AD mechanics..that's cinematic and cool, a sudden, aimed rain of steel or lasers. Unlike the crit result that serves exactly the same function but is just a cop-out from the "Larges are hard to kill" issue of the game. I am not a huge fan of pointless redundancy-if there already is a basic mechanics for "hitting a soft spot/aiming perfectly" in the game with explosive AD, why double it with a crit-chart that makes the game even more random in it's result?

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You know what the British Navy did when the HMS Hood and attendant fleet met the Bismark, and one of first salvoes of Bismark's shells penetrated the ammo store of the Hood, which exploded violently leaving about 3 survivors?

 

I don't know. I do know that using an example from the WW2 for a game supposedly set in the deep future is as relevant as demanding ramming to be brought back using the Pelloponesian war as an example. Or saying that there should be no space fighters since biplanes had open cockpits...all very relevant historical examples that we've learned from and now have, among other things, glass cockpits so our pilots don't suffocate or freeze if they go too high, not to mention segmentized rooms in warships, with blast doors and designs that take such possibilites as ammo explosion into account to prevent Hood-tastic failures.

 

 

but hey, sh*t happens, even in RL.

We're playing a wargame, an excercise in having fun. Among things that are not fun is losing due to a random roll instead of enemy tactics, and the opponent cutting your leg off if your command ship is destroyed, and I'd like to keep it this way, even if it gets in the way of realism ;)

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Not a topic I think anyone will change their minds on.  Some people find the randomness of a huge explosion determining a battle to be Fun (the way The Company That Shall Not Be Named describes their games as "beer and pretzel" style).  Others find that one roll over-riding all others to be annoying and Not Fun.  Clearly a personal choice thing, and Spartan won't be able to please everyone regardless of the route they go.  At least it's a easy house rule.

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The hood was just an example if something that has pretty much always happened in navel warfare since stuff that goes "BOOM" has been placed on board a ship. The last ship fight I can think of is the faulklands and again there was 1 exorcet missile fired = one sunk ship. These Lucky/unlucky shots have always been there and it moving into space in the future, I don't see that changing.

But hey - its a marmite result - person who rolls it loves it - his opponent doesn't lol (if you allow it lol)

Has spoilt a couple of my games and been the highlight of others. Containment leak could be viewed as more powerful - especially if the target is a dreadnought.......

I think this is one of the most split community discussions I have seen ! And its given me a few laughs too

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