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StealthSpider

Double 1's critical result

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Well you also have to think that part of being a good general is properly organizing and placing your forces. If your ratty opponent placed all of his eggs in one large basket and then stuck them too close to the abyss that's bad judgment on his part.

 

I totally agree with what you did though, I would have felt like poo the rest of the day if I won like that.

 

I like the catastrophic effects table to be split off from the critical table like BFG, none of the crits are an instant kill, they all disable certain systems except 11 and 12 which are +d3 and +d6 damage respectfully. When a ship is destroyed you then roll a catastrophic effect with the majority of results being just a hulk 9,10, and 11 are a small explosion and 12 is a big explosion.

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Still, the game is supposed to work on all point levels, when you can one-shot an enemy in a small game it hardly works, does it?

Yeah you're right. We should swap stories about when this has happened. I'll go first.

Ok I'm finished.

Totally game breaking

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Yeah you're right. We should swap stories about when this has happened. I'll go first.

Ok I'm finished.

Totally game breaking

 

Hehe.

 

Actually, I must admit I almost never made it out of my second game of FA.  We were playing starter fleets on starter fleets and my opponent rolled, on turn 2, for his Dindrenzi BB firing into my Aquan BB.

 

He got a slightly above average roll of 11, I failed both my shield dice and he proceeded to roll double 1s.  The result of this managed to crit a storm cruiser nearby (didn't blow it up, I think it was a hard pounding).

 

Now mind you, I'm new to the game. My first thought was:

 

"That's it? You roll double 1's and the game is over? This game sucks."

 

So seeing the look of joy on my face he said "well, we just started, we could try it again" and I thanked him for being nice (and not making me drive 30 minutes out to spend 45 minutes setting up a game that lasted 4:30 seconds).  Turn 3, he rolled double 6s on my BB (I had rolled dice that game! unlike the first I got to shoot at him....and miss but still I participated) and I blew up.

 

I packed my stuff into my bag (not mad, we were done for the day) and said to him (he introduced me to FA) - "Want to play real game instead of tiddly winks in space?".

 

Eventually, I caved in again and did the same thing to him (at which point I rerolled it, as it seemed pointless to play that way at 500 points).  When V 1.5 came long I had a joyous event come into my life when the 12 from the crit table vanished!

 

Mind you, that's happened to both of us in V2 though I think in all the games we've played probably only once each to anything BB sized or higher. I tend to always put my Star Admiral in my Manta and not my DN for just such an occasion. So I don't mind some randomness in my games, I just don't want it to become dominant.

 

-B

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Well you also have to think that part of being a good general is properly organizing and placing your forces. If your ratty opponent placed all of his eggs in one large basket and then stuck them too close to the abyss that's bad judgment on his part.

 

I totally agree with what you did though, I would have felt like poo the rest of the day if I won like that.

 

I like the catastrophic effects table to be split off from the critical table like BFG, none of the crits are an instant kill, they all disable certain systems except 11 and 12 which are +d3 and +d6 damage respectfully. When a ship is destroyed you then roll a catastrophic effect with the majority of results being just a hulk 9,10, and 11 are a small explosion and 12 is a big explosion.

 

Truth be told, my opponent really wasn't that good :P. I ended up more or less tabling him anyway, but at least we got to play a game.

 

Zak

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Yeah you're right. We should swap stories about when this has happened. I'll go first.

Ok I'm finished.

Totally game breaking

Hey, if you think improving a game to minimize a chance of something is not worth the time, that's totally okay, hide and seek is a cool game too and seems more to your liking?

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For example we do have a hit location for damage engines: Engine Failure - The Movement (Mv) of this model is reduced by HALF.

 

That is fine but there are many other results that could happen that may create some cinematic events. Like

 

Engine Hit - ship must move the same speed as it did the previous turn.

 

or

 

Engine Hit - This ship must move the same speed AND Direction as it did the last turn.

 

Engine Hit - the engines are damaged and must be repaired in Space Dock. This ship can not move for the rest of the game.

 

As you can see none of those destroy a ship but they do present tactical challenges when they happen.

 

In the last example Engine Hit - the engines are damaged and must be repaired in Space Dock. This ship can not move for the rest of the game. Do you leave the ship to its fate. Do you send squadrons to assist it?

 

I hope that is a better description then I did before. What do you think about those examples?

 

You can just call me Brian, I know it's the internet but heck, half of the messages boards I frequent I've ended up meeting and playing games with some of the people IRL.

 

Actually, I could see something along the lines of what you're talking about and now that you've expanded it a bit I could much more swing into something like that.

 

Maybe having something like this:

 

Roll 2d6, if you get a 5 (or whatever the number is) that's Engine Hit, roll an additional D6.

 

1-2 Engine efficiency reduced - The ship is at Half Movement until the crit is repaired.

3-4 Engine Hit - ship must move the same speed as it did the previous turn.

5-6 Engine Hit - This ship must move the same speed AND Direction as it did the last turn.

 

I'll be honest, I don't like your last example as it just removes options from that ship from the rest of the game. In all my experience it's almost never been worth it to save ships like that, just ignore them, treat them as dead and try and win with what you've got left. To me that's less cinematic, it just causes the ship to fizzle out. Mind you, I wouldn't nerd rage too hard if that existed in the game (maybe only a roll of 1 or 6, etc).

 

What I don't like in game is when one side is allowed to participate and the other isn't. Which is the root cause of why I don't want to see an even more random crit chart. It's partially why I really hated the V1 boarding rules. They gave a huge huge advantage to couple of races and huge penalty to others and there seemed to be no balance or reasoning behind it. Sorylians and Relthoza have a mechanic for easily gaining double VPs (and it was dumb easy in V1). What do Dindrenzi and Aquans get that gets them double VPs? Nothing. Wheee!!!!! Not only does my chosen race not get to participate in that part of the game but when my opponent does, they get DOUBLE THE REWARDS!!!! As soon as bombing runs get double VPs and bombers get to roll dice every turn like assault parties do, we can go back to the OP V1 boarding rules ;)

 

Zak

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So what could you break the systems down to? Just off the top of my head, Roll 2D6 first will determine what system group is affected second will determine what system is affected.

 

1-2:Weapons systems:

 

1:Weapons damage

2:Secondary systems offline*

3:Turret offline  (or gunrack)*

4:Facing broadside offline (or gunrack)*

5:Point defense offline

6:Magazine explosion^

 

*if this crit does not apply to the model apply the next highest crit that does.

^weaker version, possibly the 4 hits no explosion

I wasn't sure where the gunrack would best fit...

 

3-4:Hull:

 

1:Raging fire

2:Systems offline

3:Containment leak

4:Decompression

5:Hard pounding

6:Hull breach^

 

^some sort of random damage, d6?

 

5-6:Engines:

 

1:Engine failure

2:Thrusters offline*

3:Shunt offline-

4:Controls locked+

5:Engines offline^

6:Fold space rupture

 

*this model may not make any turns until the crit is repaired

-this model may not make any SHUNT or BATTLE SHUNT until the crit is repaired

+this model must add +1" before each turn (for example a cruiser with a turn rate of 45* 1" would have to move 2" before each 45* turn)

^this model must DRIFT each turn until the crit is repaired

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So first d6 equals general system and second d6 indicates which sub-system is hit?

 

Or were you planning on more top level results?

 

I don't see hangar bays, shields, or mines (like anyone would care :P) listed so far.

 

I think you can work by taking the existing 2x6 crit chart and just expanding on sub sections where necessary. Some hits are pretty damn harsh all by themselves, others could be expanded.

 

Mind you, I'm more or less happy with what we have...

 

Zak

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Ya first d6 is either engines, weapons, or hull and the second d6 covers what system is hit. Systems offline covers wings and shields already, mines and torpedoes are covered under secondary systems

 

I like parts of what we have, it seems like there should be something to cover when a ship doesn't have a system though.

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Hey, if you think improving a game to minimize a chance of something is not worth the time, that's totally okay, hide and seek is a cool game too and seems more to your liking?

I didn't say that and I'm amused at your low end trolling, but bad luck != bad design. Mag explosions add a great cinematic moment to a game if they ever happen, and yeah maybe 1/36 of the time is too often but no matter how rare they are we'll still eventually, after enough dice are rolled, get a guy having the dumb, blind bad luck that ruins his game like the example in the OP, the two Zak used or the one I used. Dice just do that. I'm all for a better, deeper crit table but I want these big 'money shot' moments still to happen every now and then, whether I need to roll snake eyes or spider eyes to get them.

The only way to remove these times when it seems like not only there is a god but he actually hates you is to not use dice, but then you could just play chess

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Ya first d6 is either engines, weapons, or hull and the second d6 covers what system is hit. Systems offline covers wings and shields already, mines and torpedoes are covered under secondary systems

 

I like parts of what we have, it seems like there should be something to cover when a ship doesn't have a system though.

 

I wasn't sure if Systems Offline was meant to cover all of the above. And I definitely agree about covering when a ship doesn't have something. Getting a hanger crit or shields crit against Dindrenzi is...irksome. I'm not sure I agree with all your examples but I like the direction you're going.

 

-B

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Mag explosions add a great cinematic moment to a game

No, no they don't. Managing 3x crit hit on a ship, that's epic and cinematic. Random luck, but hard to achive, much harder than 1/36. A mag-splosion is just a gimmicky way of saying "we have no idea how to make the large ships less dominant, let's add an instawin button just in case". Which they then go and negate with the Pride of the Fleet (so they KNOW there;s an issue!).

 

So yeah, I want my cinematic moments to come from real feats of luck, not a all-too-likely table that's just a bandaid on the system.

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While the Critical HIt Table could be extensively modified, the only things I'd really change would be moving Containment Leak to a less rolled number (like swaping places with Secondary Systems Offline), and changing Magazine Explosion to take 2 HPs damage and roll twice on the Critical Hit Table suffering both Critical Hit Effects but nor more HP Loss.

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The crit table can be harsh, but it can also be useless, ie. roll just under a double crit then you roll a useless "can´t use shields" on a Dindrenzi Cruiser.

 

I must say someone said it good on the first page: "strategy is all fun and good, but when you don´t have the dice to back it up it is no fun".

 

People seem actually to have forgot that we roll dice before any critical effects comes to play. So we are extremely random from the beginning. What if (you can laugh), to balance the game out and not having them game ending double 1´s happen in turn two, we "remove" the sixes from the dice during the first two turns :D

 

This would pretty much guarantee there will be no crits on big guys before we get to RB2 (aka. turn 3) :D.

 

*You can stop laughing now :P.

 

Compared to say 40k the crit system here is generous, a 300 points(ich) Land Raider can be blow up by a 100(ich) point infantry guy with a multi-melta and Land Speeder on turn one. Just by rolling over 14 with 3 dice and then rolling a 6

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4 HP loss would still be major damage to a battleship nevertheless, just not make it totally useless on 1 lucky roll.

There is also the idea (atleast in my mind) that you are investing points for more staying power than a cruiser or frigate when buying that BB. Pok also nailed this with his comment that Dreadnought actually have immunity to this effect!

 

What comes to the idea of rolling a d6 for system to get hit and then rolling another die for subeffect on that system reminds me of ACTA. I remember it having a similar system (which I did not like much either for the huge explosion possibilities, and the bookkeeping)

Not saying its bad, as long as the effects aren't gamewinning.

 

One must also consider that a sudden instakill on a BB has a snowball effect to it. Not only did you lose a powerful activation with minimal effort from you opponent, he is now also able to dedicate even more firepower on the rest of the fleet and you will lose even more models on that turn.

 

I'm viewing this the same way as many others here, that I prefer the outcome of a game relying in tactics, movement, strategy and all the other fancy words. I'm aware that where there are dice there is also luck but that does not mean a game system cannot minimize on the impact of that luck.

 

EDIT:

 

Compared to say 40k the crit system here is generous, a 300 points(ich) Land Raider can be blow up by a 100(ich) point infantry guy with a multi-melta and Land Speeder on turn one. Just by rolling over 14 with 3 dice and then rolling a 6

 

Yes, I remember the happy face everytime that landraider blew up. So much fun do you remember? ;)

I'm just fighting that same crusade here more or less :P

 

Brood (185pts) can be critted by 3 enforcers (60 pts). Granted the crit is much harder to achieve here but why must there be the potential to instakill for an already great achievement.

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I second alextroy's suggestion of switching containment leak to something less common...it's such an awful, awful crit to have on you and 9 isn't that hard to roll, unlike 3 or 11. I also like the -4 hp a lot for mag explosion. Still devastates most mediums and puts a hurt on a battleship or a dread without being an insta win fluke.

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When playing larger games my group manages just nicely with the current crits, one glance at the ships tokens and you know what's going on, adding in a lot more results would then possibly over complicate it. A couple extra results would be ok but I wouldn't want to make it too complicated.

Some good ideas floating about though....

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I posted something a couple weeks ago on the chart list.

This was still on the playtest table but here is what we have on the FB page.

Critical Hit Chart

2: Reactor/Ruptured Hit

1-2: Critical Mass 4" AD equal to double the HP of destroyed ship

3-4: Ammo Explosion: Splits the ship into 2 parts and (2) 4" AD equal to double the Hp of destroyed ship.

5-6: Fold Space Ruptured: 1d6 for direction 1-2 fore,3-4 port, 5-6 starboard.

Roll 1d6 for movement then the Ship is pulled into FTL and is removed from play. Any ship within 2" of ship has to roll a d6 and of a 1 they are pulled into FTL with destroyed ship.

3: Engine Damage

1-2: Engine Failure: Ship moves 2" next turn

3-4: Engine Damaged: Movement is reduced to 1/2 speed

5-6: Motion Control: ship has to move in a straight line and cannot turn on next activation.

4: Weapon System offline. Roll d6 1-2 back online on next activation.

1-3 Primary weapons are offline, roll d6 if multiple weapons

4-6 Secondaries weapons offline, roll if multiple systems are on ship.

Example: shields, torp, mines, point defense

5: Raging Deck Fire

d6 on 6 1cp/ap are lost, if failed add +1 to next roll.

6: Decompression on decks. loose 1 CP/AP

7: Critical Hit (Hard Pounding) 1d3 CP/AP

8: Cant take much more Captain. Add Decompression Marker

1-3 1CP/AP Taking highest

4-6 2CP/AP Taking highest

9: Armament Hit: Bay Doors Compromised.

No Assault can be launched as well as fighters or landing fighters to ship.

10: Containment Breach CR reduced to Dr

11: Bridge Hit: No star cards can be played on ship.

If Star Admiral onboard, Looses benefits

12: Abandoned Ship. Ship will move 1/2 speed then roll #2 option

Place markers outside of 4" of ship. Life boats token of all remaining CP and AP result in VP

something simple but exciting

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Dangerous yes, but I want it to be a place where one janky roll doesn't cripple a fleet. Tactics and tough game play? Yes please. Random "d6, 4+ you lose 20% of your fleet"? No, please.

 

I have to be honest - "Roll 1d6 for movement then the Ship is pulled into FTL and is removed from play. Any ship within 2" of ship has to roll a d6 and of a 1 they are pulled into FTL with destroyed ship."

 

I'd be tempted to flip the table and use to hit my opponent with a rule like that! Not just no, hells no ;) - leave that horrible jank to WHFB (stupid 8th edition making me temporarily quit the game!).

 

Zak

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Well. You wonder in today's modern military, there is still a chance of the magazine explosion (granted a lot less chance now then before). And this is in the 1800's. there has to be a chance for a magazine explosion to create realism. Some players play not just to have fun. But have fun with a somewhat realistic mechanic game. So I don't think it should be taken and hacked away into something puny. Luck just isn't with you when the snake saw you.

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Space is a dangerous place

That's why we'll send drones to do our dirty job. Unfortunately, it's also not a very exciting thing to game, since it always ends in mutual destruction...so I like my space less dangerous and more conductive to cinematic, exciting combat that isn't ended by a random fluke of chance but by skill, wits and a tiny pinch of chance. Magazine explosion isn't YOU winning, it's the dice winning, which is the worst kind of victory.

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