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Double 1's critical result

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Brood getting removed from table after first shot towards it that happens to crit and double 1 on effect.

 

Venom squad critted, double 1 leads to another crit on its friend nearby.

 

Venom squad again: crit --> double 1 leads to crit on a nearby scarab aswell and fellow venom.

 

Anyone else feel the this crit effect has the potential to turn a fun and even match into a very sour experience for the receiving party? It really adds nothing to the game other than the potential to more extreme luck.

 

Seeing as the 2nd edition is in its beta tests I propose you consider this aspect aswell. One solution could be to ignore this crit effect on a ship that has more than half its HP left.

 

Discuss.

 

 

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If the brood was a commodore you could've forced a reroll..that being said, explosions can be rather...irritating. I would like to have a strong, potentially terminal crit still there, but maybe toned down. Say, lose 4HP immediately. It will destroy a medium, but leave a large only seriously damaged.

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It can be pretty frustrating but more so on the larges than the cruisers. Overall 4" isn't a very large AoE but the blast is usually pretty potent.

The problem with removing the effect if not below half hits is that it then does nothing really. Maybe just having it do 4 hits instead of auto destruct and the blast only if the ship is destroyed?

^ what he said :P

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Ya Ive run into the double 6 near a planet problem too, used the FC re-roll to avoid it then the next shot was... double 6 crit again :/. Obviously thats not very common but it can happen. Of course things like that happen in real life too, sometimes a battle is lost because of skill or strategy but luck has just as much if not more to do with it.

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Brood getting removed from table after first shot towards it that happens to crit and double 1 on effect.

 

Venom squad critted, double 1 leads to another crit on its friend nearby.

 

Venom squad again: crit --> double 1 leads to crit on a nearby scarab aswell and fellow venom.

 

Anyone else feel the this crit effect has the potential to turn a fun and even match into a very sour experience for the receiving party? It really adds nothing to the game other than the potential to more extreme luck.

 

Seeing as the 2nd edition is in its beta tests I propose you consider this aspect aswell. One solution could be to ignore this crit effect on a ship that has more than half its HP left.

 

Discuss.

 

Results like your specific scenario are pretty incredible, odds-wise. For that to happen you need to roll snake eyes, have no Star Admiral nearby and roll snake eyes again, the roll enough 4+s to crit a ship, then roll snake eyes again, then enough 4+s to crit ANOTHER ship and then another pair of 1s.  I'm fairly sure you're integrated example is in the neighborhood of 1 in 100,000 or more though I don't have the time to do the odds right now.

 

Still, I admit there is something true to the core of your statement. The double 1's is very harsh. Heck anyone with half a brain would understand that the crit table is very harsh and just because every effect doesn't say "you lose game now" doesn't mean it doesn't have a huge impact on a game, especially a close match.  Out of the last 5 games I'd say three have been at least partially decided by the crit table with me either receiving or doing the following:

 

Knocking down my opponents BB's PD which allowed three units of bombers to deal five hull points in one turn.

Having my shields knocked down on my Apollo and having my terran ship turn to balsa wood :P and be ravaged in a turn.

The always evil "your crit rating is now equal to your DR" which allowed me to take frigates, frigates, to blow up a Dindrenzi heavy cruiser by double critting with 10 hits.

Also, my opponents BB received an engine crit and was unable to get to an objective in time with his largest ship to board it.

 

All those are game winning events and well, to be honest, crits should be pretty harsh.

 

There are steps you can take to mitigate much of that though (good placement of your Star Admiral, use of DNs, spreading your squads apart, keeping interceptors nearby to fend off assault shuttles or bombers). So while yes, it can and does happen, at least we're not in the hell that was V1 where you had DOUBLE the chance (12s also blew you up!). My second game of FA ever say my Aquan BB blow up on the start of turn 2 before my 500 point fleet rolled a die (thanks for driving to your game store, you can go home now and go play a real game of something else...) so I understand why it can really stink. In bigger games where a single ship matters less it's also less important though.

 

So I'd say it's harsh and maybe the idea of it doing half your starting hull damage (so bigger ships take more damage from it) isn't a bad one but I'm not sure it's necessary now that the table has been improved.

 

Zak

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I think your complaining cause you just got really bad luck. Ok. Really really bad luck. But imagine yourself in the other side of the board. Your grinning with victory. I personally experienced both sides of that luck and prefer to keep the way it is. The realistic possibility of it hitting your ammunition plus the fun factor. Who wouldn't want to see that dreadnought go boom when you know you have a long battle ahead of you.

My experience was one exploding battleship took out a cruiser and crit a second battleship. Which also exploded and took out another cruiser that also exploded and both damaged a third battleship to point of scrap metal. My friend and I laughed despite the affect and came up with story of someone brought in a **** load of antimatter and it just got loose and boom. Point is to have fun with the rules either way. Not nerf a rule cause you got bad luck.

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have no Star Admiral nearby

Reroll crit vs your own ship works only ON the admiral ship. So if the brood wasn't an admiral, even if it was 1" from it, it wouldn't help at all. And yes, I had my own BB exploded and has enemy BB sploded on turn 1 due to completely random fluke of chance, it's not fun.

 

In DW, which uses the same table, I voluntarily let my opponent force me to reroll a snakeye once per game, cause at some point I was exploding his cruisers left and right (Total tally from magazine explosions: 4 magazines exploded+6 cruisers caught in the blast and sunk in 3 games). Hadn't happened recently, but it's way too chancy right now. Criticals should make it harder for you, not tie your arms up and put you in a gimpsuit while a 500 pound gorilla is playing with your fleet in lieu of you.

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Just look at how the hms hood was sunk in ww1.

When I started playing I admit my opponents had much better luck than me with the crits double 1's but I knew the day would come where I did it to him. A long long time later (and about 6 games where he carried on blowing up my ships....) it finally came and the roar of joy still echoes in the gaming room to this day.

I also usually play massive fleet battles (around 3000 points) now so the loss of 1 bb is meh but at normal game size (up to 1250) can be a real game changer but how your fleet reacts is the real challenge.

There are also other powerful crits like the dr/cr is the same and no shields or pd have seen ships go down far easier then they should.

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Just look at how the hms hood was sunk in ww1.

You mean because the brits didn't adhere to their own safety standards and also built a poorly designed ship? We have a MAR like that', it's called Vunerable ;)

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Well heck guys. I'm going to throw a wrench in this whole discussion.

 

I would actually like the Critical Hit chart EXPANDED!

 

One of the things I always loved about the old role playing/ space games was the critical hit charts. Now remember what we are talking about here. This shouldn't be something you are rolling on with every shot. This should be a uncommon event. As such the effects SHOULD alter the course of the game for the ship that has been hit.

 

So I say lets roll 3d6 or 4d6 and find out the results. Remember your forces are hurtling through space in a metal tube while shooting at each other. Space has its own ways to kill us. Then we add the energies we are blasting at each other. Ships SHOULD get broken. Engines blown off. Systems destroyed, crew sucked out into the Black Ocean.

 

So if you could make a new Critical Hit chart what would it look like?

 

Personally I would include the current chart, add that 4hp hit spoken from above (My idea was just an example, and the 4HP definitely sounds good also. With the explosion only if ship is destroyed as a result.) and keep going till ever horrendous or moderate result was represented.

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Ugh, I have to admit I'd nerd rage and quite playing FA if what you suggest were to ever happen Tech. That's THE definition of unfun for me.

I frequently let my opponents reroll one shots on big ships as, in my opinion, I'm not winning the game - luck is and that is zero (goose egg nada) fun for me. I want close tactical fights where smart moves win games 100000 times more than one die roll.

I just think more randomness means less smart games and tons less fun.

Ymmv, but that would be horrible to me. I hated it whfb and I'd really hate it here.

B

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Ugh, I have to admit I'd nerd rage and quite playing FA if what you suggest were to ever happen Tech. That's THE definition of unfun for me.

I frequently let my opponents reroll one shots on big ships as, in my opinion, I'm not winning the game - luck is and that is zero (goose egg nada) fun for me. I want close tactical fights where smart moves win games 100000 times more than one die roll.

I just think more randomness means less smart games and tons less fun.

Ymmv, but that would be horrible to me. I hated it whfb and I'd really hate it here.

B

Now Zak I was not suggesting more one shot deaths. I am suggesting modeling all the terrible things that can happen to flesh and metal when exposed to the violent forces of space and war. Same chance to get e critical hit. Just more outcomes then we currently have. How would that be "unfun"?

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Veritechc- that depends solely on how much more bookkeeping would it entail. After playing vs Pathogen last night (a total slaughter with alliance ships being stolen left and right during the Horror of the Void mission), the amount of AP/CP/Crit tokens per ship quickly got unmanageable. You know I am in general pro granularity, but not when tokens are involved...if I wanted to play with chits, i'd learn poker ;)

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Scenario in OP is so far off 'normal' that you should just chalk it off as one of those war gaming campfire stories and move on. You know what I mean, we all have them! Mine is the time I lost a full terminator squad to lasgun fire by rolling five 1s from six wounds after muttering the famous last words "flashlights never kill anything". What are the odds on that? A few thousand to one? It happens and we just need to laugh it off.

Mag exp is fine imo; in small games it can be a 1-shot victory but then again you won't be bunched up. I've found generally its an anti climax and in my 40-50 games only once has a mag exp made me suggest we call it and restart

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Now Zak I was not suggesting more one shot deaths. I am suggesting modeling all the terrible things that can happen to flesh and metal when exposed to the violent forces of space and war. Same chance to get e critical hit. Just more outcomes then we currently have. How would that be "unfun"?

 

Absolutely Tech! Let me explain both with an example and quoting your follow up post. Please understand that this isn't an attack on you or even your position (man I hate writing stuff on the net sometimes as it's hard to really get your tone of voice across).  At the same time, this is something I'm very passionate about and would fight against until the end of time. What you're suggesting (more on that below) is exactly what drove me out of Battlemallet Fantasy Battle.

 

First, an example:

 

I was playing at a independant WHFB Grand Tourny in upstate New York six years ago (came in 8th place, btw).  It was my first match of the day and my opponent was a "Rat man" player. After about a half hour of watching him deploy his army (man, that's a lot of mice!) we shook hands and got ready for our fight. I rolled higher for first turn and the first thing I did was shoot a war machine at his most deadly (imo) unit which was the plague flail wielding rats.

 

The weapon deviated and hit onto his general's unit. Now I didn't target that unit because, quite frankly it was too darn big and it would have taken a miracle to kill enough to do anything useful to it. But as fate and random chance would have it, my shot deviated onto his general's unit anyway. It landed dead centre on the unit and wiped up some ridiculous 12 rats (I didn't roll a single one  :huh: ). Oh well, that a lot more than I expected and I was pretty happy to see it. Now he picked up his leadership dice for his general and proceeded to roll a 12. 

 

Keep in mind, he had not moved a unit, rolled a die (other than this one) or done anything in the game. He had, however, come down from Vermont to play at the tournament. A six and half hour drive. Well, a 12 is bad and his general's unit broke and ran towards the nearest table edge. He was 11 inches into the table.

 

He rolled a 12.

 

I could see the guy's heart sink. The game was over, there was no doubt about it. His hardest hitting unit, his general AND his highest ranked sorcerer were all dead. I felt sick to my stomach. That's not winning a game to me. That's nothing to do with tactics, nothing to do with being smarter or a better player. That's stupid luck.  And yes, that's part of the game.

 

But why did I drive 5 and half hours to a Grand Tournament? For that?

 

I looked at him and I said, 'wow, cool how you made that leadership roll'. He looked at me and thought I was being sarcastic. I told him "put the unit back, I saw that die was cocked, you should reroll it". He asked me, confused, "this is a grand tournament, you know that, right?"

 

I said, "I know. I didn't win a game right there. I didn't play better than you, I didn't outthink you. You rolled four dice. Trust me, I'm not the tooth fairy and I'm not a saint. But if there's one thing that's important to me, it's winning.  Not having my opponent lose. But honestly winning."

 

I went on to beat the **** out of the poor guy anyway (it was really not his day for dice rolling) but he got to play the gameHe killed a bunch of my guys, and the game was actually in question until turn 5.

 

To me, that win on turn 5 was worth 10000x as much as that win on turn 1 would have every been.

 

Any idiot can roll boxcars.  Generals play to win real games. That's something I very passionate about.

 

I wasn't being a saint to the guy, there was no taking back any other dice rolls in the rest of the game and I did my damndest to table his army but there was no way in heck I was going to let a single die roll ruin his day AND MINE.

 

So for me, results like double-1s for my opponents BB on turn 1? That's a miserable feeling that gives me no happiness as a gamer.

 

Now as for your original post....

 

Well heck guys. I'm going to throw a wrench in this whole discussion.

 

I would actually like the Critical Hit chart EXPANDED!

 

One of the things I always loved about the old role playing/ space games was the critical hit charts. Now remember what we are talking about here. This shouldn't be something you are rolling on with every shot. This should be a uncommon event. As such the effects SHOULD alter the course of the game for the ship that has been hit.

 

So I say lets roll 3d6 or 4d6 and find out the results. Remember your forces are hurtling through space in a metal tube while shooting at each other. Space has its own ways to kill us. Then we add the energies we are blasting at each other. Ships SHOULD get broken. Engines blown off. Systems destroyed, crew sucked out into the Black Ocean.

 

So if you could make a new Critical Hit chart what would it look like?

 

Personally I would include the current chart, add that 4hp hit spoken from above (My idea was just an example, and the 4HP definitely sounds good also. With the explosion only if ship is destroyed as a result.) and keep going till ever horrendous or moderate result was represented.

 

I bolded the last part of what you wrote there. I think maybe you mistyped or I misread you but I would read that as you would want not only "instant kill results" (which you would change to -4 hp) but "ever more horrendous" results too. What's more horrendous than a ship instantly blowing up? On a 13 does the whole Squadron randomly blow up as well? On a 15+ does your opponent have to punch themselves in the face? ;)

 

I'm guessing I misread you there and that maybe you just want ever more crippling results (which I'd not enjoy seeing) and that you didn't mean 'worse than auto-blowing up?"

 

Do you understand where I'm coming from now?

 

-Brian K.

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Mag exp is fine imo; in small games it can be a 1-shot victory but then again you won't be bunched up.

Still, the game is supposed to work on all point levels, when you can one-shot an enemy in a small game it hardly works, does it?

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Absolutely Tech! Let me explain both with an example and quoting your follow up post. Please understand that this isn't an attack on you or even your position (man I hate writing stuff on the net sometimes as it's hard to really get your tone of voice across).  At the same time, this is something I'm very passionate about and would fight against until the end of time. What you're suggesting (more on that below) is exactly what drove me out of Battlemallet Fantasy Battle.

 

First, an example:

 

I was playing at a independant WHFB Grand Tourny in upstate New York six years ago (came in 8th place, btw).  It was my first match of the day and my opponent was a "Rat man" player. After about a half hour of watching him deploy his army (man, that's a lot of mice!) we shook hands and got ready for our fight. I rolled higher for first turn and the first thing I did was shoot a war machine at his most deadly (imo) unit which was the plague flail wielding rats.

 

The weapon deviated and hit onto his general's unit. Now I didn't target that unit because, quite frankly it was too darn big and it would have taken a miracle to kill enough to do anything useful to it. But as fate and random chance would have it, my shot deviated onto his general's unit anyway. It landed dead centre on the unit and wiped up some ridiculous 12 rats (I didn't roll a single one  :huh: ). Oh well, that a lot more than I expected and I was pretty happy to see it. Now he picked up his leadership dice for his general and proceeded to roll a 12. 

 

Keep in mind, he had not moved a unit, rolled a die (other than this one) or done anything in the game. He had, however, come down from Vermont to play at the tournament. A six and half hour drive. Well, a 12 is bad and his general's unit broke and ran towards the nearest table edge. He was 11 inches into the table.

 

He rolled a 12.

 

I could see the guy's heart sink. The game was over, there was no doubt about it. His hardest hitting unit, his general AND his highest ranked sorcerer were all dead. I felt sick to my stomach. That's not winning a game to me. That's nothing to do with tactics, nothing to do with being smarter or a better player. That's stupid luck.  And yes, that's part of the game.

 

But why did I drive 5 and half hours to a Grand Tournament? For that?

 

I looked at him and I said, 'wow, cool how you made that leadership roll'. He looked at me and thought I was being sarcastic. I told him "put the unit back, I saw that die was cocked, you should reroll it". He asked me, confused, "this is a grand tournament, you know that, right?"

 

I said, "I know. I didn't win a game right there. I didn't play better than you, I didn't outthink you. You rolled four dice. Trust me, I'm not the tooth fairy and I'm not a saint. But if there's one thing that's important to me, it's winning.  Not having my opponent lose. But honestly winning."

 

I went on to beat the **** out of the poor guy anyway (it was really not his day for dice rolling) but he got to play the gameHe killed a bunch of my guys, and the game was actually in question until turn 5.

 

To me, that win on turn 5 was worth 10000x as much as that win on turn 1 would have every been.

 

Any idiot can roll boxcars.  Generals play to win real games. That's something I very passionate about.

 

I wasn't being a saint to the guy, there was no taking back any other dice rolls in the rest of the game and I did my damndest to table his army but there was no way in heck I was going to let a single die roll ruin his day AND MINE.

 

So for me, results like double-1s for my opponents BB on turn 1? That's a miserable feeling that gives me no happiness as a gamer.

 

Now as for your original post....

 

 

I bolded the last part of what you wrote there. I think maybe you mistyped or I misread you but I would read that as you would want not only "instant kill results" (which you would change to -4 hp) but "ever more horrendous" results too. What's more horrendous than a ship instantly blowing up? On a 13 does the whole Squadron randomly blow up as well? On a 15+ does your opponent have to punch themselves in the face? ;)

 

I'm guessing I misread you there and that maybe you just want ever more crippling results (which I'd not enjoy seeing) and that you didn't mean 'worse than auto-blowing up?"

 

Do you understand where I'm coming from now?

 

-Brian K.

 

Hey Zach,

 

Let me say that I cracked up a few times as I read your response so you know I'll be taking this all in good gaming fun.

 

I can tell you that I have done the exactly same things in many games and tournaments as you did. We play these games to have a challenge, not to exploit the rules or to have a simple dice roll determine the outcome. So I completely understand why you would not like a chart that was a random "I win" button.

 

Now I also come at this from a cinematic perspective. I want the battle to be epic, win, loose or draw. I want big event to happen in the game that have to be overcome. That can be from terrain, the enemy or events. What I was suggesting is not line up you models, roll a random number then take them off.

 

For example we do have a hit location for damage engines: Engine Failure - The Movement (Mv) of this model is reduced by HALF.

 

That is fine but there are many other results that could happen that may create some cinematic events. Like

 

Engine Hit - ship must move the same speed as it did the previous turn.

 

or

 

Engine Hit - This ship must move the same speed AND Direction as it did the last turn.

 

Engine Hit - the engines are damaged and must be repaired in Space Dock. This ship can not move for the rest of the game.

 

As you can see none of those destroy a ship but they do present tactical challenges when they happen.

 

In the last example Engine Hit - the engines are damaged and must be repaired in Space Dock. This ship can not move for the rest of the game. Do you leave the ship to its fate. Do you send squadrons to assist it?

 

I hope that is a better description then I did before. What do you think about those examples?

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