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Vanguard Mk2 Community Edition Discussion

Vanguard Mk2 Options  

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My suggestion ist to make the Vanguards straight hunters and counter attackers:

 

- delete the broadsides (right, no broadsides any more)

- delete all MARs and the RR (right, no ramming any more)

- add sharp turn and panic dive instead

- change unit class to medium (instead of medium capital class)

- decrease points cost to 50

- change the torpedos to FC 8-6-3-0 (right, maximum firepower in RB1)

- increase AA to 4

 

This way they become a threat to all type of targets. In RB1 they could destroy a small model or crit a cruiser each,, A Full squad could link 16 AD against large ships, or 8 AD against flyers. They would  become more resistant against boarding. The opponent has to care about them. They are still vulnerable to flyers while submerged. Once emerged, they hit hard but become vulnerable.

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Well, it would be a RB1 unit to counter models that got into our weak spot. This is what KoB is missing, and it fits our playing style of torpedos and AA. I feel that chainsaw ramming subs do not fit the civilized KoB. KoB are all about solid units instead of shenanigans. So why should they build a chainsaw ramming sub? This rather fits to barbarian EoBS and PE.

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Well, it would be a RB1 torpedo counter against units that got into our weak spot. This is what KoB is missing, and it fits into our playing style of torpedos and AA. I feel that chainsaw ramming subs do not fit into the KoB. KoB are about solid units instead oh shenanigans. So why should they build a chainsaw ramming sub? This rather fits into EoBs and PE.

Because, KoB are also not about RB1 torpedoes, and lets face it, the vanguard isn't a diving robot, the vanguard isn't a robot, a walker in the middle of the ocean, or a flying ship. It has a very unique aesthetic that I would like to see more of (honestly, I'd fawn over an entire fleet of ramming submarines for all size classes including carrier massive). We want a ramming sub because it's COOL to have a bizarre thing here and there, sort of like the Parliament building in an ocean of tanks, a random chainsaw submarine is very steam punk, very cool, and it's what we were promised.

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It gets my vote. It's on the model and it's our special, unique ship.

Who cares if it's unlike other ships - it's not as if the Ika is like any other EotBS vessels, is it? Well, possibly apart from that weird floating squid they have now too.

It should be a unique vessel doing an unusual job - like the Merlins are singled out in an otherwise average Air Force.

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Agreed,

That suggestion you posted Lifegiver, while a viable option, isn't one I'd be inclined towards (nor many KoB players, heck even DW players in general).

It doesn't fit with the model's looks and to be fair if you think about it as our iconic ship it does fit our ideologies (we're British bulldogs who will grit our teeth and tackle the opponents where we need to).

The main problem is that the stats (most specifically the weapon systems) don't fit with it's intended play-role. The options you put up there aren't necessarily filling a niche, but trying to plug a weakness.

 

Also, I think you're maths are wrong as you would link torps and AA, not combine. If only we could combine torp waves! oh the damage we could achieve :P

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Agreed,

That suggestion you posted Lifegiver, while a viable option, isn't one I'd be inclined towards (nor many KoB players, heck even DW players in general).

It doesn't fit with the model's looks and to be fair if you think about it as our iconic ship it does fit our ideologies (we're British bulldogs who will grit our teeth and tackle the opponents where we need to).

The main problem is that the stats (most specifically the weapon systems) don't fit with it's intended play-role. The options you put up there aren't necessarily filling a niche, but trying to plug a weakness.

 

Also, I think you're maths are wrong as you would link torps and AA, not combine. If only we could combine torp waves! oh the damage we could achieve :P

I do believe he was using a squadron of 3 linked in RB1

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I'm with the others who feel the Vanguard needs to be a rip, shred, tear, blood, ooooh... gush type of unit. If you want a torpedo boat just use the Vanguard model and the Orion stats. I want just enough torpedoes to hurt the target and then let the ram and chain blade finish the job. :)

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As a new player to DW, the Vanguard was one of the reasons I picked KoB as my starting fleet. I really liked the idea of a dedicated ramming sub.

 

What I would like to see:

- Higher speed, possibly with Sharp Turn

- 5HP and higher DR/CR

- Hull Breaker, Hull Ripper, Iron Ram, and Panic Dive

- Ability to ram while submerged (look at that model, the chainsaw is perfectly positioned to rip out the bottom of a ship)

- No braodsides, torps limited to RB1/2 or RB1/2/3 that can take out smalls, but no much else

- Impervious, maybe higher AP (but not enough to make it a big boarder)

- Better AA, CC

 

While I don't like too many MARs, I always visualized the Vanguard as cruising straight into the enemy flanks and causing havoc with hit and run tactics while the bulk of the KoB blast them with torps at a distance.

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As a new player to DW, the Vanguard was one of the reasons I picked KoB as my starting fleet. I really liked the idea of a dedicated ramming sub.

 

What I would like to see:

- Higher speed, possibly with Sharp Turn

- 5HP and higher DR/CR

- Hull Breaker, Hull Ripper, Iron Ram, and Panic Dive

- Ability to ram while submerged (look at that model, the chainsaw is perfectly positioned to rip out the bottom of a ship)

- No braodsides, torps limited to RB1/2 or RB1/2/3 that can take out smalls, but no much else

- Impervious, maybe higher AP (but not enough to make it a big boarder)

- Better AA, CC

 

While I don't like too many MARs, I always visualized the Vanguard as cruising straight into the enemy flanks and causing havoc with hit and run tactics while the bulk of the KoB blast them with torps at a distance.

Good for the most part, though I believe it would be unfair to be able to ram surface vessels while submerged and there fore immune to any sort of counter, I would like to be able to ram other submerged vessels while submerged

 

edited so my comment makes sense

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if we concentrate on the ram function , which really is how the models portrayed , could we allow the "ram" to link somehow amongst the squadron increasing the chance of success and if we have to surface to ram can we still use panic dive to try and submerge again ? i know from the aronnax forum it was not possible for it to dive after a boarding attempt but we ram in a different part of the activation ? need a rule lawer i think :(

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if we concentrate on the ram function , which really is how the models portrayed , could we allow the "ram" to link somehow amongst the squadron increasing the chance of success and if we have to surface to ram can we still use panic dive to try and submerge again ? i know from the aronnax forum it was not possible for it to dive after a boarding attempt but we ram in a different part of the activation ? need a rule lawer i think :(

It is specifically allowed to dive after a ram or an attack if my memory serves correctly.

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if we concentrate on the ram function , which really is how the models portrayed , could we allow the "ram" to link somehow amongst the squadron increasing the chance of success and if we have to surface to ram can we still use panic dive to try and submerge again ? i know from the aronnax forum it was not possible for it to dive after a boarding attempt but we ram in a different part of the activation ? need a rule lawer i think :(

 

 

Hey guys, back from Holiday and happy to see some positive discussion. I tend to side with the lets make it first and foremost a ramming unit folks, with secondary close range torpedoes and at least decent enough AP to protect itself. 

 

Yeah you can trigger panic dive after a ram attempt its only boarding that you can't. Not sure about linking ram attacks, I like the idea but it would be a pretty serious break from the standard rules as ramming happens as part of a units move. So I don't think its a sensible route to take sadly. If we were making up MARs I dare say we could come up with something but as I've said before I think a new stat line stands a much better chance of being accepted if we stick to only using existing MARs.

 

Something else to look at is the various generators that we could put on it. there are some interesting options, off the top of my head a kinetic generator would seem to be a good fit. 

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Guest Delboy

Here is an old version of the Vanguard stat edit one of the test team touted to the group from a while back.

Its pretty bonkers in truth, but does point to some of the suggestions folks have mentioned on this thread.

Vanguard2.jpg

 

I like the idea of having to surface, then activate the Kinetic.... might roll a 1.....might roll a 6....random, but fun I think!

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Keep it a ramming vessel.

 

Up speed to a natural 9 (same as cruisers)

 

Drop Experienced Engin. MAR

 

Add Iron Ram and Dolphin Dipper (I know that's a CoA thing, but I don't want to invent a new MAR)

 

Replace broadsides with Aft Torps, fixed channel (nearly all actual subs would have rear torps.)

 

Keep everything else the same.

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I think nope :) Such threads i think are more for fun that for actual change :D

I would like to have a better sub, bit we have what we have, we can take other units, like Gunships :)

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And this thread i think was intended to create a stat line that is an 'accepted' community alternative that groups may use for house rulings if they wish.

And also to try and bring spartan attention to this subject again in the vain hope they'll change things. It seems to have gotten closer than most, delboy seems to be taking an interest :)

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Guest Delboy

I certainly am Zihith!

I would like to hear people's experiences of gaming with alternative builds for Vanguard [or indeed anything else that is felt to be out of sync.]

 

People should feel like Spartan is listening, because we are.

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I certainly am Zihith!

I would like to hear people's experiences of gaming with alternative builds for Vanguard [or indeed anything else that is felt to be out of sync.]

 

People should feel like Spartan is listening, because we are.

 

This is so nice. Even if the changes don't make it, it's nice to know that adjustments are being heard and thought about, no matter how ridiculous I- I mean, we make them.  :)

 

Keep it a ramming vessel.

 

Up speed to a natural 9 (same as cruisers)

 

Drop Experienced Engin. MAR

 

Add Iron Ram and Dolphin Dipper (I know that's a CoA thing, but I don't want to invent a new MAR)

 

Replace broadsides with Aft Torps, fixed channel (nearly all actual subs would have rear torps.)

 

Keep everything else the same.

 

9" is a bit too high (That's faster than the majority of cruisers in the game), but using Dolphin Dipper gives it a good balance of flat-out speed and slowing-but-sharp turns. A 10" flat-out will keep up with the fastest cruiser and once they start turning, you have them beat with the sharp 45 degree turning radius.

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I may try out iron soldier's build today. The only thing i can think of is that while tactically dolphin dipper makes sense, the idea behind the mar doesn't seem to fit with the vanguard.

I was wondering how to make it a torpedo boat and a sustainable ramming ship without going too 'OP' and i must say aft torps never occurred to me! On paper that seems like the perfect answer, will have to test it :)

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Someone actually ran three vanguards at a tournament the other day here in NZ, and we figured out whet made them X10 better, adding speed. The tournament had random cards that either buffed your fleet or de-buffed the other guys and the brit player got a spped one for his vanguards, which made them very usable. We also found that they can cause a lot of damage if you start ramming in a swirling melee of ships.

 

So I definitely think a speed buff would be in order.

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If ramming is obligatory, I would keep the changes minimal. Speed 8 and 50 points each would make them a good unit imho. I still think that ramming does not fit the KoB style of play, though. This feels like Khorne berserks in a Tau army.

 

Because, KoB are also not about RB1 torpedoes, and lets face it, the vanguard isn't a diving robot, the vanguard isn't a robot, a walker in the middle of the ocean, or a flying ship. It has a very unique aesthetic that I would like to see more of (honestly, I'd fawn over an entire fleet of ramming submarines for all size classes including carrier massive). We want a ramming sub because it's COOL to have a bizarre thing here and there, sort of like the Parliament building in an ocean of tanks, a random chainsaw submarine is very steam punk, very cool, and it's what we were promised.

Well, the blades could be just because of aerodynamic reasons. There are many differences between the models and the rules in Dzstopian Wars.

Remember that once KoB was lacking ordnance firepower and anti air flyers. Then the Merlins and the Lord Hood came. RB1 torpedo subs are not that strange.

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It badly needs sharp turn and a speed bump.

 

If it isn't for ramming it needs better long range torps.

 

At present it cant do either.

PS In my last game I rammed a French skimmer cruiser with 1HP left on it. The first Vanguard was sunk by it for no damage and the second vanguard achieved a no result. I had to sink the thing with extra gun fire. I only achieved the rams because of an extra 3" from the STAR card.

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