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Official Thread: Prussian Scandinavia

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@Merlin: Sure, but Corrosive makes no sense as a Prussian/STO weapon. It's a French system, so it feels like it's shoe-horned in for no reason other than to be 'different'. I'm all for new weapons, but giving them a system from another unrelated nation isn't the way, and I personally don't have any ideas for a new weapon system that is similar to Tesla/Speerschleuders... I'm open to suggestions though.  :unsure: 

On the Hochmeister and Metzger being removed from the Prussian ORBAT: No. Simply no.
 

The Metzger has always been a Prussian model from way back in the very early days of DW, even from before the STO was a concept... To then strip units out of a faction for no reason is not only inconsistent historically, it also makes no gameplay sense and would get a LOT of Prussian players offside. I would strongly oppose this change.  <_< 

As Farcages points out, the STO is pretty much a part of the Prussian Empire, much more so than Commonwealth nations are a part of Britain. And it seems the STO were so well behaved, the Empire even gave them a whole country to play in to their hearts content...  :lol:

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I really doubt it would make any difference at all removing them. They are close allies. So in land games they'd count as a core unit.

Sure they'd have to bring a non capital, but that's easily fixed bringing the Zerestor, or Ritter.

So what exactly would change list building wise that would make this so nonsensical from a gameplay point of view??

In naval games they'd still count as non-core units, and since most agree the Hochmeister and the other Dreadbots should be played at 1500pts or more, there's plenty of room to add a Zerestor squadron.

So again, what makes this so nonsensical??

Just because the game started with Metzger as part of the PE forces, doesn't mean it can't, or shouldn't be changed. Same with the Dreadbot.

Besides, if your going to go down the route of "the STO and the PE are so close that they can do this type of thing" then why not go the next full step and get rid of the STO?? I mean what purpose does it serve to have two Prussian Empire factions, when one obviously isn't needed??

As to the weapon. Perhaps an area affect plasma weapon that uses both blast templates. Small effect template hits at a really high AD value, like 0/10/9/8 or, can choose to use the large blast at a cost of halving the AD??

Because its a plasma weapon it would allow the use of Corrosive.

And I don't believe the fact the French have it on a few models should matter. The Chinese also have the rule, but I hear no complaints about them.

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Removing a unit from a faction that it has had since the game started is a huge no-no, especially considering it is one of the most iconic ones in the game. Not to mention it's the model that got a lot of people into playing Prussia... To then go 'You know what? That model that you love in the faction you started because of it? Not that faction anymore! Sorry! Guess you'll need to repaint it, and then buy some more models you might not like just to use it now!'

So no, the Metzger should remain as a Prussian model first and foremost, even if that means removing it from the STO to 'make them different'. The Hochmeister obviously doesn't have that pedigree, but releasing it as a Prussian model, then less than a few months later changing it's designation would garner similar feelings.

The nonsensical bit is stuff such as 'Oh, you just have to bring X unit extra now so you can bring the models you have always used before', for no real gameplay reason. It's not for balancing, its not for background, so I'm not sure what it really achieves beyond forcing people to buy and use extra models they didn't have to previously.  :wacko: 

You'd be far better off stripping the Metzger Ausf-A from the STO, and giving them their own set of variants with different options and weapons. More boardy (Metzger with close-combat weapons, for instance) and short range but much more brutal.

The 'plasma' weapon sounds ok (seeing as lightning is a form of plasma anyways) but I'd drop the blast templates (especially the large). If plasma, corrosive makes a little sense, although Incendiary makes significantly more considering what plasma actually is... Either could work, although I'd definitely like to see it keep some resemblence to the tesla and Speerschleuder weapons, being an evolution or offshoot of that technology, rather than some completely random technology they just pulled out of a hat.

On a more constructive note, I'd like to see another medium Robot, but significantly more offensive in nature than the Schildtrager. Maybe a speerschleuder or short-range but high-AD tesla arm, and then just a big armoured fist/sword/mace arm on the other side. Give them a tesla generator, and you're pretty much done. 

I'd also like to see perhaps a Medium airship squadron that can deploy Assault Infantry, kinda like a baby Ausfeher with baby Fausts... Maybe a speerschleuder turret if we want it to be equipped a little different for a Medium, but a tesla armament would be fine too. :P

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Why get rid of the faction? Why reduce options when its easy enough to do a simple update once in a while and make a few people happy by letting their particular snowflakes keep on falling.

I know Id be pissed if my minor nations got rolled into their majors- but honestly, theres not much of a reason they couldnt be. Even ones as disparate as the Ottomans to the French. *shrugs*

And goodness knows, they might get a second box.




As for extra selections- I too would enjoy a close combat medium and large option, a couple more small robots- perhaps a Fenris styled one?- and sure, why not some plasma weaponry.

Heck, the storm generator used by the Ottomans sounds good too- weather control, lightning strikes, and Jotun....

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@Corrupted

STO and PE Robots: I disagree. A slight inconvenience shouldn't matter gameplay wise, or background wise. Metzger was there from the start because the Teutonic Order didn't have a faction, and it likely never would have because what was the point?? They were just a background element within the Prussian Empire.

Now it is a faction. There is no longer any need to keep them in the PE Orbat.

We could go round and round on this. So I think we'll leave it at "agree to disagree?"

Weapon: Well, the Cannons that the St. Micheal had would be perfect for a plasma weapon. The Tesla on the Schildtrager could also be considered an evolution on the tesla weapons. It has the generator bit at the elbow joint, but other than that it does look kinda like it could be a cannon too. The tesla bit is just to generate the power needed for the gun?? Could work out nicely id think.

How it would work?? Well, if Incendiary would work better, why not use the Flamethrower rules, because it would cause AP damage as well, but it is allowed to cause critical hits and 2HP damage on criticals??

It takes rules already in the rulebook, but adds some exceptions to make it much more terrifying.

So on a critical hit it would cause 2HP damage, 1AP, 2 Raging Fires, and a critical effect

However, I would say that to make it balanced, it should not be linkable with the Tesla Coils, or Speerschleuder. And would gain no benefit from the lightning rod??

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Removing a model that's available to a faction is a terrible idea. Astoundingly terrible. Just straight-up awful.

 

It's been done before with the Zamiec and the Russians, and it was a terrible idea there- my most regular RC opponent has a Zamiec and hasn't used it in years because he suddenly needs to buy an entire new boxed set of models to field an allied group.

 

And some people don't use the allies rules at all, because they allow some very scary combinations. Even if your local play group uses allies, most tournaments don't by default, so it totally removes the choice there.

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What difference does it make if tournament do or don't? Tournaments outlaw the Dreadbots on most occasions, and who uses metzger on a competitive level in a naval game, as naval tournaments are the most common tournaments??

And the ally rules are what they are. If people don't want to use them that's their choice.

Those aren't really good excuses to counter removing a model from a faction. The allied rules allow the back and forth of models between factions. There is still nothing stopping players bringing Metzger or the Dreadbot using them.

Spartan allows this and encourages this. If players don't want to use them that's their problem. Not the game's.

And besides, any Prussian player worth his salt would probably already have 1 of the 3 units they need to make the allied group, because the same models are also part of the PE Orbat. So what all would they lose?

Your friend not using the Zamiec is of his own making. Fair enough, he doesn't want to buy any more PLC models, but that is his choice. But no one here or at Spartan is stopping him from getting a couple, or proxying them so he can use the Zamiec. Its not like he has to buy a box set. He can just get the models he wants.

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A set of models that's being reviewed for being totally out of whack, in the form of the dreadbots, not being allowed at a tournament somehow makes it okay to start removing iconic units that have always been available? No way.

 

The allies rules are optional for a reason. Suddenly having to get your opponent's explicit agreement to use a model that, by your own admission, isn't good enough used at a competitive level is ridiculous.

 

You're arguing for removing something that people have paid for, with the reasonable expectation that it would always be available to their forces. It was a terrible idea last time Spartan did it. It's not going to be a better idea now. We've literally seen this exact situation before, seen that it was awful, and you're arguing that Spartan should do it again.

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What are you talking about? The allies rules aren't optional. They are a core element of the game. Nowhere does it say that you need your opponents permission to use allies.

And who said that because tournaments disallow them that therefore means anything??? It doesn't. What tournaments do is up to the TO. If they see fit to ban allies, and therefore limit what players can and cannot take then that's what's going to happen. The game is not stopping it. The TO is. So take that argument to them.

Yes, they have paid for the models. And they can still use them. Taking them away from one faction, and making them solely part of another does not mean they are beyond reach forever. They can still be brought, meaning that money is not wasted.

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Admiral edition, p20, Common Agreements, The Use of Allies.

Neither side may take Allies (not even Close Allies) unless their opponent agrees.

 

What are you expecting tournaments to do? Have a special exemption for some nations? "No allies unless you're Prussia with Teutonic allies"? You're saying that Prussian players should suddenly have to argue with the organiser just to use a model that's already in their orbat.

 

Yes, I'm sure saying to all the Prussian players "sure, you can still use that model you paid for, just as long as you invest in another nation" is going to make Spartan look really good.

 

And I'll repeat: This has been done before, and was a terrible idea then. Nothing makes it a good idea now. It is still an awful idea.

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Removing the Metzger and other robots from the Prussian list is terrible idea, and one I cannot see happing under any conditions ever.

 

 

Trying to convince Merlin that they are not correct on something is like trying to triple crit a dreadbot- far more effort than it is worth.

 

james

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Considering the To are not even a minor nation, there just a faction really. Moving any core units to a minor faction would be a terrible business decision as it could have a direct impact on sales, thus it will never happen :P

 

But I can see why people would expect them to be part of the To only :)

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I just think your all over reacting.

 

I never said it should be done. I said I'd be in favour of it happening as I think its just silly.

 

 

Trying to convince Merlin that they are not correct on something is like trying to triple crit a dreadbot- far more effort than it is worth.

 

james

-_-

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Removing certain models from a nation's ORBAT just because its background says came from another faction isn't really a good idea. That would affect a lot of nations, especially minor ones, as many of them use retrofitted and/or reverse-engineered equipment from other nations. For example, all of the Indian Raj ships are Britannian hulls with a retrofit.

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What are you talking about? The allies rules aren't optional. They are a core element of the game. Nowhere does it say that you need your opponents permission to use allies.

IT'S A TRAP!!!

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Didn't the Teutonic Order and the Prussian Empire sign a Cooperation Pact? I'm quoting from the shop here:

"The Scandinavian Teutonic Order is infamous around the world for its Battle Robots, and are generally accepted as the leaders in the development and research of these creations. But up until now the small territory has never really had the production capacity to take their creations to the next level. Following the Full Cooperation Pact signed between the Prussian Empire and the Teutonic Order in late 1871, their dreams of conquest finally seem to be within their grasp! The Hochmeister Dreadnought Battle Robot marks the pinnacle of the new alliance, marrying the industrial capability of the Prussian Empire with the ingenious engineers and inventors of the Teutonic Orders to create a true monster in the field of Battle Robot development."

If you'd extend that, I'm tempted to say that the relationship between the Teutonic Order and the Prussian Empire is a lot more tight-knit than that of say the Indian Raj and the Kingdom of Brittania. The Emperor doesn't use Teutonic Knights as his personal attachés for nothing!

You are correct. The hochmeister is essentially developed by the teutonic order and the PE together. Their relationship are much much more closely knit than normal alliance nations.

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You are correct. The hochmeister is essentially developed by the teutonic order and the PE together. Their relationship are much much more closely knit than normal alliance nations.

 

Kinda like puppymonkeybaby.

 

Oops did I say that out loud?

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I still haven't seen a single good reason to remove the Metzger from the Prussian ORBATs. It makes no sense, and would simply act to really annoy and upset people that have always had a Metzger as part of their Prussians.

And as Sebenko pointed out: Allies are not part of the core rules, they are optional. That's on top of the requirement to take a 'tax' of units you might not want to take, simply so you can take a model you used to always be able to, but now can't because... reasons?

On the plasma idea, that just sounds like a Super-heavy Flamethrower that is also normal Ordnance (so no downsides...). I think it'd be better to go in a far different direction and have something that can link with tesla/speerschleuder and benefits from harpoons. Kepp their tech on the same path, rather than veering wildly into other nations areas.

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The Teutonic Order has not been forgotten! We are working through the alliance nations, and I will endeavor to include some information about our schedule and the Teutonic Order in the next blog post.

Please Giles, please let them have naval forces. Lend lease Prussian ships would be cool too!!

On a side note, the Metzger is an iconic unit for PE and more so for the Order. I don't see why would anyone wanted to remove it from the PE orbat.

Yes, the Metzger is kinda weak in sea, and should need a bit of a boost, but as a fluff player, I would still bring them in for war. Who could resist giant robots marching into sea and crushing ships?

On the issue regarding taking Metzger as allies, when we remove it from the PE orbat, I would whole heartedly classify that idea as not wise. Why needlessly complicate something?

Also. If I'm not mistaken, when you take allies, you need to take a capital and non capital ship as a requirement..... Seeing as most TO stuff are land based, and if you are playing a naval game..... I don't see how that could be wise.

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Please Giles, please let them have naval forces. Lend lease Prussian ships would be cool too!!

No, Just god no...... Jesus i think people are getting a little update happy here. TO are basically 12 guys and a pet rabbit compared to other nations, why do they deserve naval units??

sorry i think that would be a complete waste of time and resource to create another cookie cutter prussian force...each more identicle than the last

why dont we invest time in actual other nations like SUSA or Egypt who would be 1000% more worth it

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No, Just god no...... Jesus i think people are getting a little update happy here. TO are basically 12 guys and a pet rabbit compared to other nations, why do they deserve naval units??

sorry i think that would be a complete waste of time and resource to create another cookie cutter prussian force...each more identicle than the last

why dont we invest time in actual other nations like SUSA or Egypt who would be 1000% more worth it

You mean, "Oh Wodan, no" right? =P

Jokes aside, you do realize that you are in a TO thread right? Asking "us" to invest time in susa or Egypt is like going to a cake shop, and when hearing that a customer saying that his dream cake has more icing and cherries, frown in disapproval and telling the Baker that we should have chocolate doughnuts instead.

(sorry, not very good at analogies, but I hope you get the point)

However I agree that if we have our prussian lend lease naval force, we might become just another prussian force, however the same can be said about our land (if you dismiss the land robots) and air force too. We need extra stuff to truly distinguish ourselves from the PE.

I guess the best way to do it (a naval force) is perhaps to give the forces some other universal MAR at sea. Perhaps terror tactics and sustained assault, elite quality troops and a higher costing ships.

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