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Official Thread: Kingdom Of Denmark

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I don't really have an issue with my Danes not having access to Prussian gear, as I feel the same as Sebenko that minor factions are exactly that, minor. They have a more limited and specialised set of tactics, but are generally way better at them than the Core7.

Keeping the Prussian gear as non-core is simple from a rules perspective, fits the background of these being rare spares the Prussians have been able to provide, and ensures we don't see a Prussia 2.0 appear instead of the Danes. Plus it might mean we have to see more of a Danish expansion if there are obvious holes in the ORBAT (a second naval small, for instance... ;) )

Then why have them as lend-lease at all if its just the first step and removing them from the ORBAT?

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I think all that needs to change is a caveat that Lend-Lease models may not be taken as Allied vessels, to stop the Prussians taking Prussian 2.0 models as Allies. :P

@Grey Mage: I never said remove them entirely, as I like having them around as an option. But they shouldn't dominate Danish list building... Rather, they are a nice 'ooo, I might take one ship from that list' type thing, instead of the 50% of my Danish force is now Prussian.

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Im going to ask again- has that actually been a problem? Were there large groups of Danish players in your area that didnt like their native models enough to squeeze out most of the Prussian forces?

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I've personally never really used the Lend-Lease models (other than some Wachters and Stolz's), and I'm the only local player with Danes. However, there seems to be a massive issue here with people complaining about lend-lease as it stands, apparently because they can't fit Aerial models and Prussian models into the 40% of their force that is available for this.

So I do support the rules as they stand. I've never had issues with playing my Danes to the point I felt the need to pack my list with Prussian models, and I've found there is plenty of variety in lists you can build, even with the Danes narrow focus on tactics. So to answer your question with another question: why do the Danes need to be able to build lists using Prussian models as Core units?

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So... that would be a no, its not being abused huh? Alright.

For starters the complete eradication of Air Core from the ORBAT. Thats fun.

Secondly: escorts, that take up your non-core spots? Might as well not exist. Youll probably have a couple points left over, and a Watcher would be a useful addition to our glass cannon forces- but no ones going to take them in non-core where they compete with Magni and Fafnirs for points. Thats pretty much ****.

If I put my Commodore on an Emperor- a sensical and simple option yes?- Ive now just used half if not more of my non-core force, and not provided a core large to my list.... why is this a thing? Thats crippling in smaller games, and darned annoying in larger ones. Are the Danes so spoiled for choice that a single battleship weighs against every merc, aerial unit, and escorts?

Or heck lets just look at the model count: Danes: (7) Prussian LL: (10). If we arent supposed to have 1-2 Prussian units in the force- which is unrealistic when they compete against our Aerial units!- then why do they outnumber our 'native' units by 50%? Thats absurd. Thats like telling a KoB player that they get to keep their massives and subs in core, and the rest will have to compete with their aerial units and allies. Can you imagine them being happy about it?

Im not lying, I enjoyed being able to advance deploy a pair of Konigsburgs once in a while. Thats just not in the cards anymore- Im sacrificing to many activations and to much tactical flexibility by doing so, because it literally means I can have A squadron of Magni or *one* Fafnir in a normal game, no more. Is that really a reasonable restriction?

And on a personal note, Ive converted several Danish ships into counts-as black wolf mercs so I could run a Nemesis and Furies once in a blue moon. Same problem- except if I want to run my experimental Danes not only do I not get aerial models, now I cant enjoy my old flagship, or a squadron of Speerwurfs I had to direct-order from spartan and would enjoy dusting off once in a while just for kicks.

Speaking of speerwurfs- theyre the same price as a Magni, but can you really argue theyre the same value on the table for a Danish player? Its not like we have loads of Tesla running around.....

Etc etc etc.

Did we really need the Havel and Adler? Because Id give them back in a heartbeat if thats the real issue here. If having to much Prussia in your Danes is the issue, why were we given these?

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I love the Danes. I will do so regardless of if this issue gets fixed. But it is better I think for the game and players if it is addressed.

Here's one for the "Danes lend lease changes is good business thinking" folks.

Why would you add the Havel and Adler as Dane lend lease models? (Answer, to sell extra Prussian models to Danish players duh!)

Why then would you make all Prussian lend lease models non core? (Answer, to limit any incentive for Danish players to buy many Prussian models....oh wait a moment.....that seems odd doesn't it?)

So let's consider the "sell more" thinking shall we? You will sell more of both Danish native and lend lease models by making the faction fun to play with and against.

Also, the philosophy of not obsoleting models is 100% the opposite of making all lend lease models non core. By changing this , you are absolutely and without question having the same effect as obsoleting models the player base has spent money on.

So again....rather than just argue, how about problem solving it? The 20% rule, or some of the ideas noted above by Gray Mage seem like an excellent starting point. Game balance seems to be no problem also....and no one seems to be complaining about abuses.

So why not try to do something smarter than the current "new normal"?

Along the same lines, I would not be sad to see either more Aussie models or some added lend lease there also. Why not?

As long as it makes sense for the game fluff and game balance, I will be happy.

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I'm more curious about what sort of lists people are running that requires MORE than 40% Non-core...? I have never hit that limit, unless I'm running one of my Danish SAS Lists of Doom, and that's just because I pack out the Aerial component with Fafnirs.

A lot of the arguments seem to focus around the fact people can't take the Emperor as their Commodores vessel as well as a massive amount of Aerial models...

The thing is, you can run an Emperor as your Commodores vessel, but it will impact your list if you do. You're trading Aerial flexibility for a 'tougher' Commodore. You can max out your Aerial models instead, but it will have to consider what you are doing with your Commodore then. It's no different from the other list building restrictions like 40% smalls, or non-Naval elements being non-Core in Naval games. I often want to run way more smalls than that, but I can't because that'd be weird (if completely awesome...) and wouldn't it be such fun saying 'Naval' then bringing pure Aerial to the table...? :P

So again, I see no issues with the Lend-Lease being non-Core. It's flavourful, it leverages a rule we already have rather than adding more, it adds options to the Danish list, but it will cause you to actually have to make sacrifices if you want to use them to tailor your force or cover a weakness, as opposed to cherry picking units from the Danish and Prussian ORBAT to create a decidedly non-Danish list...

I would like to see more Danish units though, such as another small, an Aerial large, another Aerial medium maybe and possibly a Tender or something so we can bring more of the Tyr's... But Lend-Lease should remain as a nice way to add flavour to your force, not a central pillar to build lists around.

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It may be to "restrictive" for some, but you can work around it and come up with a list that is competitive. Especially now that the Danes have new units. This supposed "loophole" we knew was there and it was intentional. We are only dealing with a small number of Prussian units and an even smaller number of those units that would benefit from CQG when taken as close allies in a Prussian list. The gamer has to decide if he wants to do that. 

 

This is not the only list where lend-lease is non-core by the way. The Indian Raj lend lease air units are non-core. 

 

Merlin  You are right to surmise that part of the reason is to get more Danish players to use "pure" Danish units. And as you say there is nothing wrong with that.

If you dont want us to have Prussian Lend-lease then just cut it from the list and admit it- but dont soft touch me into frustration. Dont sit there and pretend youre not trying to squat those models into a new paint scheme or a dark trunk if thats really what youre going for.

Its insulting, its unhelpful to the game, and its a slap in the face after buying 8 players their first box set to get your game off the ground. Just play it straight with me.

 

 

I'm more curious about what sort of lists people are running that requires MORE than 40% Non-core...? I have never hit that limit, unless I'm running one of my Danish SAS Lists of Doom, and that's just because I pack out the Aerial component with Fafnirs.

A lot of the arguments seem to focus around the fact people can't take the Emperor as their Commodores vessel as well as a massive amount of Aerial models...

The thing is, you can run an Emperor as your Commodores vessel, but it will impact your list if you do. You're trading Aerial flexibility for a 'tougher' Commodore. You can max out your Aerial models instead, but it will have to consider what you are doing with your Commodore then. It's no different from the other list building restrictions like 40% smalls, or non-Naval elements being non-Core in Naval games. I often want to run way more smalls than that, but I can't because that'd be weird (if completely awesome...) and wouldn't it be such fun saying 'Naval' then bringing pure Aerial to the table...? :P

So again, I see no issues with the Lend-Lease being non-Core. It's flavourful, it leverages a rule we already have rather than adding more, it adds options to the Danish list, but it will cause you to actually have to make sacrifices if you want to use them to tailor your force or cover a weakness, as opposed to cherry picking units from the Danish and Prussian ORBAT to create a decidedly non-Danish list...

I would like to see more Danish units though, such as another small, an Aerial large, another Aerial medium maybe and possibly a Tender or something so we can bring more of the Tyr's... But Lend-Lease should remain as a nice way to add flavour to your force, not a central pillar to build lists around.

Its not just the Aerial models- lets say you only want to run 2 Fafnirs, thats fine- your Emperor took half, and the Fafnirs basically took the other half. Youve now used 390pts- and you havent gotten a core large.

So we can run a Ragnarok, cheapest core large we have- and probably about 10pts worth of upgrades for a useful gen or boarding or something. So now were at 540pts. Gotta have a squadron of Korsors- so 665.

We now have 335pts left in which to take a core medium squadron and.... what? We cant even take two squadrons of Sigurds with that. Theres certainly no real room for another Ragnarok, though I suppose you could drop it to 290pts by taking an asgard and just fill up with 3 gunships.... because if I take that sigurd squadron at 180pts, I dont have enough for another squadron of Korsors, but a Skags going to leave me with 30pts I cant use because I cant take an escort on my battleship.... whats a guy to do?

But see how immediately restrictive it became, just by taking one single model. Not even a dreadnaught, nothing broken, not even an A-lister in its parent list. Thats ridiculous.

And saying 'its okay that this happens all the time because hey, its just a minor nation' seems pretty ****.

Its not significantly better looking at taking the Stolz for that matter- at 160pts, theyre expensive for a small- perhaps not unreasonably expensive, but still almost a cruiser squadron. Taking those would open up alot of space in that list- as long as I was okay only running a single large/massive in 1kpts, which is probably a death sentence with Danish CR/DR eh?

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To be fair, the Stolz is unreasonably expensive because its rubbish and seriously needs a redesign.

I still maintain that changing the guns to Bombards would be the best change for it.

As to Lend Lease, I agree with your views. It is so unbelievably restrictive sometimes. But I play mostly 1250-1500pt games, so its not too restrictive for myself.

But I do understand your sentiments.

There are times I wish I could bring a battlecruiser or two to the table, but because it has to fight with the Fafnir for the spot, the Fafnir usually wins out.

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We are back to 'But I want to take an Emperor AND other Non-core', but in the context of a small points game... I can't take more than 400 points of Smalls in 1000 points either, and I feel that that is severally restricting how I play some of my fleets. But I also don't think it should be changed so I can take unlimited smalls, as hilarious as that would be... 

And it's not really that ridiculous. You aren't forced to take any Lend-Lease, and they aren't pivotal to the play style or strength of the Danes. They are simply nice additions that can alter your fleet if you want. They shouldn't be used as a crutch or as the core of the faction, like people seem to want the Emperor to be...

My approach is always to ignore Lend-Lease unless I have a very specific job for them that I feel the sacrifice is worth it for. The Emperor has never been on my radar for this reason, as I just use a Ragnorak or recently an Asgard. But stuff like 'hey, lets try a battlecruiser in Advanced deployment for fun' is exactly what I see Lend-Lease for. They aren't supposed to be the backbone of your fleet, that's what the actual Danish models are for.

Oh, and I'm not shrugging and saying 'It's a minor nation, who cares...?' at all. This is a minor nation and it will have less options, that's how the minor nations work. The Core7 are the ones with nearly every option for playstyle under the sun, while the minor nations are much more about taking a specific playstyle to it's extreme...

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The new lend-lease rule seems to adress the following issues:

1. Abuse of lend-lease models by allies.

2. Danish fleets consisting mainly out of lend-lease models.

The first issue can easely be solved by adding a rule that lend-lease models can not be taken as part of an allied force. Beside that, allies can only be taken with opponents permission and are ruled out on most tournaments.

So far nobody on this forum has advocated that a danish force should be able to consist mainly out of lend-lease models. Moving them to non-core seems like an elegant solution, but making these models compete with air is to restrictive.

A better solution to me would be to add a rule stating that only 30% or 40% of the points may be used on lend-lease ships or only one lend-lease squadron can be taken for every 1 or 2 danish ones.

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Its not just the Aerial models- lets say you only want to run 2 Fafnirs, thats fine- your Emperor took half, and the Fafnirs basically took the other half. Youve now used 390pts- and you havent gotten a core large.

So we can run a Ragnarok, cheapest core large we have- and probably about 10pts worth of upgrades for a useful gen or boarding or something. So now were at 540pts. Gotta have a squadron of Korsors- so 665.

 

Part of the problem is you are playing with only 1000 points which is considered a small game. I know it is not written in the rulebook directly but standard game is 1500 points in it has been stated before that game was designed with 1500 point mark in mind.

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Its not just the Aerial models- lets say you only want to run 2 Fafnirs, thats fine- your Emperor took half, and the Fafnirs basically took the other half. Youve now used 390pts- and you havent gotten a core large.

So we can run a Ragnarok, cheapest core large we have- and probably about 10pts worth of upgrades for a useful gen or boarding or something. So now were at 540pts. Gotta have a squadron of Korsors- so 665.

We now have 335pts left in which to take a core medium squadron and.... what? We cant even take two squadrons of Sigurds with that. Theres certainly no real room for another Ragnarok, though I suppose you could drop it to 290pts by taking an asgard and just fill up with 3 gunships.... because if I take that sigurd squadron at 180pts, I dont have enough for another squadron of Korsors, but a Skags going to leave me with 30pts I cant use because I cant take an escort on my battleship.... whats a guy to do?

 

OK. Let's list build shall we?

 

2 Fafnirs: 200 pts (tesla gen or spotter)

1 Emperor: 190

1 Raggnarok: 150

3 Sigurds: 195

2x5 Korsors: 250

Total: 985 pts, so there's 15 pts left to add an option or 2 if I feel like it.

 

This is actually a nice build. It's got 2 larges, 2 medium squadrons and 2 small squadrons. I'd take it to a 1000 pt game any day.

 

But see how immediately restrictive it became, just by taking one single model. Not even a dreadnaught, nothing broken, not even an A-lister in its parent list. Thats ridiculous.

 

No I don't see the restriction. Frankly if you want to take 3 medium squadrons in a 1000 pt list and then claim that it's the lend-lease rules that are preventing you from making a decent build, I'm having real trouble taking you seriously.

 

Guess what: list building is about making choices. You want 3 medium units: well, it means that you're limited in your large/massive and small choices.

That's not about being an alliance faction, and certainly not about "pretty ****".

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Part of the problem is you are playing with only 1000 points which is considered a small game. I know it is not written in the rulebook directly but standard game is 1500 points in it has been stated before that game was designed with 1500 point mark in mind.

Really? dont think i ever heard that it was around 1500

 

we have been playing 1000 points and have been enjoying the diversity of lists as people cant just take 3 of everything good all the time. and even then the game lasts a reasonable amount of time which is nice.

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I think we've played one 1,000 point game in the last 2-3 years. Everything else was 1500+.

 

As to the Danes, I have every Prussian model legal for lend lease painted in Danish colors and other than the Emperor and needed smalls, rarely use that many PE models now that the Danes have been filled out. I don't really care if my Danish Konigsberg never sees the light of day as in the overall scheme of things, I've got some rarely used models for every fleet (cough 8 x  Doncasters). I certainly don't see dark commercial plotting on the part of Spartan to get me to buy a few models that amount to chump change in what is/was/always will be, discretionary spending at its most discretionary.

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Oke, time for something different. What do you think about the specialist squadrons? I like the Thung squadron, it seems to have great potential to spend some leftover points to add a calcification generator to a Sigurd squadron.

Ryker uses a Skagerak more in the role of a battle cruiser. Other nations have similar squadrons. Personaly never used them, but it might work as a flanking unit as it is more or less self supporting ( Korsors for close defence and extra AA/CC, Skagerak for some firepower ).

Not so sure about the Orn squadron. Looks like a strange combination to me, that doesn't seem to have much senergy.

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For the Orn, I guess if youre 35pts shy of a second fafnir and really need toe AA defense vs rockets or something?

The Thung is more or less exactly what I wanted to see. It would have been nice to have the option for either mark, but Ill take the option for the generator- its an interesting switchout for the AP the sigurds have, but I think its got promise. I think the really big deal here is it better allows you to spread Calc Gens throughout your force without making your skags incredibly vulnerable to rockets, torpedoes, etc, in turn for not getting them at a one per one activation. A solid exchange in my mind.

Ryker.... eh *shrugs* the Korsors lack the escort abilities that make those squadrons work, and the Skag lacks combat patrol. Im not sure Ill ever field this, but if I do I would certainly use it on a flank as you were discussing. Atleast the turrets stack nicely with the broadside weapons :)

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I promissed myself to quit the lend-lease discussion, but I came up with one more idea that I want to throw in.

How about allowing the danes 10% more non core points (from 40% to 50%)?

This would give the players wanting to use lend-lease models a bit more breathing space and might please the pure danish forces players as well, as the danes seem to rely a bit more on air units as a part of their basic setup.

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I promissed myself to quit the lend-lease discussion, but I came up with one more idea that I want to throw in.

How about allowing the danes 10% more non core points (from 40% to 50%)?

This would give the players wanting to use lend-lease models a bit more breathing space and might please the pure danish forces players as well, as the danes seem to rely a bit more on air units as a part of their basic setup.

I would be just as happy with this as my proposal also. Anything to solve the problem and wncourage a little more variety in fleet lists and use all those models! It could be a simple addition to the Danish universal rules.

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Hello all fellow Danish Warriors!

 

I need some advice on using my fleet. So I figured out that close quarters gunnery means that I need to be very aggressive, and drive into enemy territory into range band 1, where most factions have penalties to shoot, whence I don't. But here is the problem - I found my Danishes to be quite delicate. For me, it looks as though the Danish are like a "Glass Knife", if take shots, the fleet disintegrates rapidly. I found this to be true when facing a British fleet (with a Dreadnought facing me, umph!).

 

Is there anyway that someone could suggest what to do to minimize my casualties? What would be the tactical advice on facing off dreadnought armed fleets?

 

P.S. By the way, facing an Antarctica fleet recently, their particle generators are fearsome, but is it only me, or are their ships squishy? I mean, even with my level of experience, I found destroying their battleship and the fearsome particle generator armed Zeno's to be almost a piece of cake of a job on one flank with a Ragnarok three Skagerraks and three Korsor corvettes.

 

Cheers for any advice,

Nordic_Wolf

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Good questions and observations

Hi there!

You are absolutely correct about the Danes. Of all the nations they are one of the fastest, most manoeuvrable and gunsiest fleets out there. Did you know that three mk2 Skaggerrak put out 39ad with no penalty to hit in range band 1? My opponent learned the hard way.

But this approach comes with its limits. If you try to steam across the open sea with nothing to protect you, you will be shot to pieces. Our larges and massives have access to shields, at the expense of access to tesla gens, but everyone else is very much reliant on hiding. The best thing to do is use sharp turn to hug terrain and the time your attack perfectly. From where your model is it can make a mighty 12" leap towards a target, crossing from RB3 to RB1 and unloading those delicious shots.

But this is not their only trick. Their other trick is boarding. The Tyr and Sigurds (and to a lesser extent everything else) has sufficient AP to trash basically any model on the table. I once snuck a unit of Tyr through to a majesty, he totally fluffed his AA and AP rolls and a danish flag was hoisted! Good fortune aside, the sigurds land up to 18 (terror tactics) troops on something, which is comfortably enough to overwhelm anything.

But the key thing that underpins everything is that timing. If your approach is well set up in turns 1 & 2, you'll ruin anyone's day. If you time it badly or get unlucky, there will be lots of casualties.

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Hi there!

You are absolutely correct about the Danes. Of all the nations they are one of the fastest, most manoeuvrable and gunsiest fleets out there. Did you know that three mk2 Skaggerrak put out 39ad with no penalty to hit in range band 1? My opponent learned the hard way.

But this approach comes with its limits. If you try to steam across the open sea with nothing to protect you, you will be shot to pieces. Our larges and massives have access to shields, at the expense of access to tesla gens, but everyone else is very much reliant on hiding. The best thing to do is use sharp turn to hug terrain and the time your attack perfectly. From where your model is it can make a mighty 12" leap towards a target, crossing from RB3 to RB1 and unloading those delicious shots.

But this is not their only trick. Their other trick is boarding. The Tyr and Sigurds (and to a lesser extent everything else) has sufficient AP to trash basically any model on the table. I once snuck a unit of Tyr through to a majesty, he totally fluffed his AA and AP rolls and a danish flag was hoisted! Good fortune aside, the sigurds land up to 18 (terror tactics) troops on something, which is comfortably enough to overwhelm anything.

But the key thing that underpins everything is that timing. If your approach is well set up in turns 1 & 2, you'll ruin anyone's day. If you time it badly or get unlucky, there will be lots of casualties.

 

Cheers. Great, so I got into a faction just by liking the models, and then it appears that they have just the tactical game-style that I like - double luck, I must be Irish! Yeah I see, so I'll try to get that hiding technique into my mind - not use the "Charge of the Light Brigade" approach in some spots - it is only too easy to get carried away in the moment of aggression and scream "CHAAAARGE!".

 

About the boarding, cheers for that. I was actually seriously considering of getting an Emperor Battleship (Prussian Lend-Lease) for that purpose, and totally forgot to look at what the Danish have at their disposal - thanks a lot for that suggestion, I'll use that instead of the Emperor. Actually, I have been very cautious with boarding, so will try to give that a go my next game. Can you suggest how squadron support works? At least, where can I find it in the book - this idea is completely new to me, I have only used escorts up to now on my Ragnarok Battleships.

 

Cheers a lot for the post.

 

Nordic_Wolf

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The squadron support is basically a free (well integrated into the cost of its parent) unit the deploys with papa Asgard but then works like a separate unit. The Tyr are very tough to hit without using area bombardments (6s from capital and 5s from noncapital) and very easy to hide, and fast. They also present six targets meaning the defender has to split their AA and Defending crews very thinly, especially on a battlecruiser or damaged battleship!

As for the emperor, she's a solid vessel to stick a commodore onto because of that fierce 3d6 shield, but it's 200 points out of your non-core list, which any Danish vet can tell you is stealing space from our beloved Fafnirs, which are slightly more tactically flexible.

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