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Official Thread: Kingdom Of Denmark

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What you've essentially done is suggested that the prussians are able to ignore the restrictions of the Danish rules, thereby making the orbat pointless. May as well just give prussia CQG and high payload mines throw the danish orbat out.

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Essentially, the Prussians can do that. But they would gain CQG on two models only, and High Payload mines on one model.

 

But then, the Prussians could take an all Danish force from the non Lend-Lease models anyway and count as Core units and have lots of those special rules anyway. So I fail to see what your point is?? Your saying that the Danish Orbat should be scrapped because their models can be taken as a Core by a faction that could take them as a Core anyway??

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Yes. If the Danish orbat is just a punishment on danish players, they may as well just play prussians and SG can remove the Danish orbat, given that, as your beard points put, it's much more efficient to do so.

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Come on, you seriously believe the Lend-Lease rules are there just to dissuade players from using Prussian models?? They are there for the simple purpose of forcing players to buy the Danish Boxsets. Otherwise, Prussian players would be using their Prussian models as Danish Lend Lease units in a Danish force, gaining the special rules without the need to actually get any Danish models.

 

Spartan needs to make money. That is why the restriction is in the Danish Orbat. To force the matter.

 

However, the allies rules circumvents that restriction, allowing those players who do not want buy Danish models to use Danish rules. But, as was pointed out to me, that is entirely at the opponent's, or Tournament Organiser's allowing this to happen.

 

If neither allow allies, then a player will have to get the models to make it a legal force, or just use Prussian Stats.

 

 

There is no need to get rid of the Danish Orbat. Getting rid of it would get rid of the Magnetic Pulse doctrine which is integral to how the proper Danish models work.

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Come on, you seriously believe the Lend-Lease rules are there just to dissuade players from using Prussian models?? They are there for the simple purpose of forcing players to buy the Danish Boxsets. Otherwise, Prussian players would be using their Prussian models as Danish Lend Lease units in a Danish force, gaining the special rules without the need to actually get any Danish models.

 

 

There is no need to get rid of the Danish Orbat. Getting rid of it would get rid of the Magnetic Pulse doctrine which is integral to how the proper Danish models work.

You've literally spent this whole time pointed out that prussians can do this the other way around anyway, without needing any danish models whatsoever.

There's clearly a loophole that needs fixing here, because yet again the prussians are the ones reaping the greatest benefit of the Danish list.

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You've literally spent this whole time pointed out that prussians can do this the other way around anyway, without needing any danish models whatsoever.

Using them as allies requires opponents permission. So there is a limiter on that direction. Plus it needs a Non-Capital squadron to be brought along for the ride, otherwise it wont be a legal Allied Battle Group. So, either the Korsor, Magni, or Geiers have to be brought along.

 

There's clearly a loophole that needs fixing here, because yet again the prussians are the ones reaping the greatest benefit of the Danish list.

Which is what I was pointing out this whole time.

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ok so guys from reading both sides of this discussion and speaking to merlin. SG really needs to clarify this, as merlin stated it dosent actually mention lend lease in the allies section of the rulebook and also, as i read it anyways, bringing close allies count as core, however they keep all factional rules of the fleet they are from e.g PLC primaries keep incindiaries. As said lend lease is a danish rule, integrated within its orbat so it also gets carried across. although as i said to merlin from reading the lend lease rules it actually says in the second paragraph the wording "The Danish Force may contain the following Models as part of their Non-Core Force without the requirement for Allied Battle Groups to be formed". Technically as the rule says the "danish force may include", if danish models are brought as allies in a prussian force, then technically they cannot bring lend lease as its not a danish force. 

anyway, this is just how i see it, but as I said its the sort of thing that needs addressed in the FAQ, its not going to break the game at all, but it isnt clear

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Its actually much more straightforward than y'all are making it seem.

Lend-lease says: "The Danish Force may contain the following Models as part of their Non-Core Force without the requirement for Allied Battle Groups to be formed:"

Since a Prussian force is not a Danish force, it cannot take those models as part of its non-core force, despite being in the Danish ORBAT.

IE a Force is not a Battlegroup.

Edit: That being said, the close allies issue is still some BS when it comes to the reverse. We get rewarded with a couple special rules for taking a Prussian ship, amd instead of just making them somewhat more expensive theyre made non-core. Which does nothing to increase the variety of fleets fielded under the Danish flag and make the game more interesting or fun.

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Its actually much more straightforward than y'all are making it seem.

Lend-lease says: "The Danish Force may contain the following Models as part of their Non-Core Force without the requirement for Allied Battle Groups to be formed:"

Since a Prussian force is not a Danish force, it cannot take those models as part of its non-core force, despite being in the Danish ORBAT.

IE a Force is not a Battlegroup.

Edit: That being said, the close allies issue is still some BS when it comes to the reverse. We get rewarded with a couple special rules for taking a Prussian ship, amd instead of just making them somewhat more expensive theyre made non-core. Which does nothing to increase the variety of fleets fielded under the Danish flag and make the game more interesting or fun.

pretty much the point i was making lol

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Personally I just don't think the crying about the lend lease being non-core is justified to the extent we see it here. Basically it is a luxury problem. When playing DW you usually decide which faction you want to play with. If you go for the KoD you do find a nice selection of additional units you can use without the restricitions for allied forces. The only restriction there is: Stick to a viable KoD core force. LL helping out was important when the KoD only consisted of Raggnarok, Skagerrak, Sigurd and Korsors. But with the addition of Fafnirs, Magnis, Asgard and Tyrs the KoD actually have a decent choice of units. If you want to field some prussian units you might have to drop some air units, so what? Even in a small 1000 point force you can easily include air support and PE lend lease in a variety of KoD setups.

 

Assuming most KoD players have both boxes by now, I really don't see the "hard cap" of LL anywhere. And if one really wants to go with less KoD units, why not go with another Faction and field the KoD as allies?

 

R

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I think people are talking at cross purposes. It feels like Merlin is talking from a Prussian perspective but the responses are from a Danish perspective.

There is a loophole in the rules and put succinctly Prussia takes what it wants from both lists, Danes struggle to take what it wants from its own orbat due to lendlease. Non core having to cover all Prussian models as well as aerial in a naval list is too restrictive.

Unless I've read the above totally wrong of course...but I am awesome and totally right all of the time so I doubt it lol

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I think people are talking at cross purposes. It feels like Merlin is talking from a Prussian perspective but the responses are from a Danish perspective.

There is a loophole in the rules and put succinctly Prussia takes what it wants from both lists, Danes struggle to take what it wants from its own orbat due to lendlease. Non core having to cover all Prussian models as well as aerial in a naval list is too restrictive.

Unless I've read the above totally wrong of course...but I am awesome and totally right all of the time so I doubt it lol

It may be to "restrictive" for some, but you can work around it and come up with a list that is competitive. Especially now that the Danes have new units. This supposed "loophole" we knew was there and it was intentional. We are only dealing with a small number of Prussian units and an even smaller number of those units that would benefit from CQG when taken as close allies in a Prussian list. The gamer has to decide if he wants to do that. 

 

This is not the only list where lend-lease is non-core by the way. The Indian Raj lend lease air units are non-core. 

 

Merlin  You are right to surmise that part of the reason is to get more Danish players to use "pure" Danish units. And as you say there is nothing wrong with that.

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Oml

I should also point out that fleet OB's are also supported and influenced by the background story and vice versa. In the new background that accompanies the fleet list the Danish are asked by the Prussians to increase the size of their navy by using Norwegian and Swedish sailors for the coming campaign in the Baltic. 

 

This could mean further additions to the fleet OB which would in turn make the issue of lend lease non-core rather mute to those gamers who want a "pure" Danish force of models on the table top. Conversely by keeping the lend -lease units around Spartan has not invalidated the gaming pursuits of the original intent of gamers who wanted to game with the Danes on the side. In the end the Danish fleet continues to expand ( slowly and surely ). :)  :ph34r:

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I think a simple and balanced solution could be a slight addition to the Danish national rules. Something like the following.

Note: up to 20% of Danish naval core force may be made up of Prussian naval lend lease models, which will count as core. Any points spent beyond this 20% allowance will be counted towards the non core force.

This would be a simple and balanced fix. Danish commanders would not simply lose out on air models because they wanted to use their emperor BB. But the limit would be quite impactful, maintaining the necessity to buy Dane boxes.

Frankly the need to buy boxes should not even be a consideration. Make the game and fleet cool...and boxes will sell. Lord knows I have a huge Danish fleet, with two of the old box, two of the carrier box, plus all the Prussian lend lease.....one of each squadron as dedicated Danes.....meaning my Prussian models are yet another set....

So yeah.....there is a constructive suggestion. Allow 20% naval lend lease to be core. Let's try to find a better way....this is about improving on a good thing and solving a problem....not just complaining.

Finally I can promise you that if your perspective was that of a player who had all the lend lease dedicated models, you would care more about the problem!

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Personally I just don't think the crying about the lend lease being non-core is justified to the extent we see it here. Basically it is a luxury problem. When playing DW you usually decide which faction you want to play with. If you go for the KoD you do find a nice selection of additional units you can use without the restricitions for allied forces. The only restriction there is: Stick to a viable KoD core force. LL helping out was important when the KoD only consisted of Raggnarok, Skagerrak, Sigurd and Korsors. But with the addition of Fafnirs, Magnis, Asgard and Tyrs the KoD actually have a decent choice of units. If you want to field some prussian units you might have to drop some air units, so what? Even in a small 1000 point force you can easily include air support and PE lend lease in a variety of KoD setups.

 

Assuming most KoD players have both boxes by now, I really don't see the "hard cap" of LL anywhere. And if one really wants to go with less KoD units, why not go with another Faction and field the KoD as allies?

 

R

Heres the problem- those Fafnir and Magni are *already* non-core, and the Asgard and Tyrs are just one single unit.

Not to mention, we already had the Fafnir.... it was in the first box set.

So we gained one unit- and more or less lost the ability to take 5 others. That unit is the Asgard, and dont get me wrong- its awesome, and that 15pt hike was probably well deserved. But does it fill the gap of a truely durable *by comparison* medium that the Konigsburg did?

Can it lead the tip of the spear like a Emperor?

Does it fill a small naval squadron slot so we have some other option besides- the admittedly grand- Korsor?

Does it open up Air-core the way the Gewittirwolke did?

No. It does none of these things. Taking the Asgard automatically puts a significant chunk of your force into carriers and boarding- two areas the Danes already excelled at, which is fine... if you wanted to even further specialize in those areas. But being one dimensional is not fun. If I wanted to have more carriers, I could have taken Fafnirs- if I wanted more boarding, well the whole ORBAT is chock full of it.

This change literally guts three different list types- Battleship battle lines, Air Core, and Medium Gunnery, and makes us rely entirely on either Carrier Spam or Boarding to the nth degree. Thats why its upsetting, and thats why it feels like a kick in the kidneys when I look at my collection. Im not asking to field a mostly Prussian force- Im just asking to not be penalized for taking *any* Prussians in my force.

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It may be to "restrictive" for some, but you can work around it and come up with a list that is competitive. Especially now that the Danes have new units. This supposed "loophole" we knew was there and it was intentional. We are only dealing with a small number of Prussian units and an even smaller number of those units that would benefit from CQG when taken as close allies in a Prussian list. The gamer has to decide if he wants to do that. 

 

This is not the only list where lend-lease is non-core by the way. The Indian Raj lend lease air units are non-core. 

 

Merlin  You are right to surmise that part of the reason is to get more Danish players to use "pure" Danish units. And as you say there is nothing wrong with that.

As air units they would be non-core anyways. Thats not actually a factor for the Raj.

Indeed, in the two theatres that the Raj has core forces- armored and naval- it has no Naval lend-lease and ALL of its Armored lend-lease is core.

And while I do love that the Danes *can* make a pure Danish force that works, the evisceration of lists types takes a fun and dynamic faction rather 2 dimensional, and it hurts.

Where are people seeing these mostly Prussian lists Masquerading as Danes? Where is this a problem?

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I didn't mention anything about being non competative. I regularly take pure Danes to tournaments. A bit like gray Mage says, there tends to be a certain type of build as the non core aerial take up points.

As we get new models, maybe that could have been the catalyst for the lend lease change rather than before. Too late now though.

I like the Danes, just would prefer to use more units. Bigger games it's fine, just rarely get to play anything over 1000-1250. I wouldn't use core Prussia with Danish bonuses as it doesn't feel right to me. A bit gamey.

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Heres the problem- those Fafnir and Magni are *already* non-core, and the Asgard and Tyrs are just one single unit.

Not to mention, we already had the Fafnir.... it was in the first box set.

So we gained one unit- and more or less lost the ability to take 5 others. That unit is the Asgard, and dont get me wrong- its awesome, and that 15pt hike was probably well deserved. But does it fill the gap of a truely durable *by comparison* medium that the Konigsburg did?

Can it lead the tip of the spear like a Emperor?

Does it fill a small naval squadron slot so we have some other option besides- the admittedly grand- Korsor?

Does it open up Air-core the way the Gewittirwolke did?

No. It does none of these things. Taking the Asgard automatically puts a significant chunk of your force into carriers and boarding- two areas the Danes already excelled at, which is fine... if you wanted to even further specialize in those areas. But being one dimensional is not fun. If I wanted to have more carriers, I could have taken Fafnirs- if I wanted more boarding, well the whole ORBAT is chock full of it.

This change literally guts three different list types- Battleship battle lines, Air Core, and Medium Gunnery, and makes us rely entirely on either Carrier Spam or Boarding to the nth degree. Thats why its upsetting, and thats why it feels like a kick in the kidneys when I look at my collection. Im not asking to field a mostly Prussian force- Im just asking to not be penalized for taking *any* Prussians in my force.

Should the Danes be able to do all of those things?

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Call them lend-lease doesn't change the fact that these PE models were once an integrated part of KoD fleet. Forcing players to buy new models to have a legal list again is something I only expect from one company that shall not be named here. I don't believe that this was the intention for the rule change, but for some players it will be the result.

It is the same for the argument somebody used that the Skagarak should be weakend because Magni and Tyr are now available.

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What that company does is not unique to that company. All companies do it.

If Spartan realised that by making a few extra, cool, models for a particularly popular faction they can make more money, why wouldn't they make a tweak to the rules so players using that faction must get this particular box set??

It makes perfect business sense.

I mean its like the current trend of releasing a video game with most of the game, but some aspects are left out and released as Downloadable Content instead.

Companies know that people will buy these things no matter what, so why would Spartan be any different in this regard??

They are a business after all, and if it means that they stay around for a long time I'm all for them to do it. Just so long as they don't become recluses who believe only in what they want to hear, and money they see.

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Should the Danes be able to do all of those things?

In a word: Yes.

Moreover, every faction should potentially have the ability to field lists with multiple win strategies/list builds that are all relatively competitive. Lend-lease exists to expand the potential options for a smaller faction to keep this very diversity alive in the game doesnt it? And then people get mad if it gets used? Poppycock.

There is no reason any small nation should not have flexibility. The chinese have multiple win strategies, and the post-update ottomans are being brought into that same level, while mercenaries, Aussies, and EITC have had it for a while. The PLC struggles with this same problem of one-dimensionality, and its a common enough complaint from their players.

Im not asking to have my cake and eat it too- put restrictions in, so there cannot be more Prussian LL ships than natively Danish ones, allow at most one LL squadron of any one type to be core, or both. Make sure its clear as day that the Prussians cant take Prussian boast through a Danish allied list, and/or up the points on the LL squadrons so they stay balanced. Thats fine. But dont take away my ability to field 22% of my native Danish forces if I want to field any of my lend-lease forces.

Can you really look me in the eye and say a Konigsburg is a choice compared to a Fafnir? Or a squadron of Magni?

.... and if its the Havel and Adler that are the troublemakers here.... Ill happily give them back.

 

And let me ask you a question in turn Desubot: If the Raj suddenly found their rolling death-palace in non-core, thus making it impossible to field a legal armored force.... would it be horribly odd to find some upset Raj players?

Because thats exactly what happened to Danish Air Core.

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Did i miss something?

 

Aus and EITC with Flexible multi win condition lists? Its honestly been the exact same mono tone lists here for a while and i would certainly like to be proven wrong as honestly with these two, royal aus moves in quick brings damage and trys to cap boats, the EITC and free aus tends to just sit back pew pew with guns or torps and then goes for boarding actions.

 

China... is just an issues :/

 

i really dont get why the Danes need to also be a Prussian army when quite a few of the mercs basically only have 1 box.

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The PLC struggles with this same problem of one-dimensionality, and its a common enough complaint from their players.

 

This is how I view minor nations as it is- more 'distilled' factions that focus more on a single tactic. The Chinese were always the odd ones out there- maybe they should be a major nation and the Russians can be dropped down- after all, they're rather one-dimensional. The minor nation commodore doctrines reinforce that- while major nations have abilities such as discarding TACs and re-rolling any generator, minor nations have very directed doctrines- for example, PLC, which has "board stuff on fire better" and "make stuff double on fire". Both of them centre totally on their main special ability as a faction, which is to make stuff very on fire.

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I don't really have an issue with my Danes not having access to Prussian gear, as I feel the same as Sebenko that minor factions are exactly that, minor. They have a more limited and specialised set of tactics, but are generally way better at them than the Core7.

Keeping the Prussian gear as non-core is simple from a rules perspective, fits the background of these being rare spares the Prussians have been able to provide, and ensures we don't see a Prussia 2.0 appear instead of the Danes. Plus it might mean we have to see more of a Danish expansion if there are obvious holes in the ORBAT (a second naval small, for instance... ;) )

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