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Official Thread: Chinese Federation

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3 hours ago, Secundum said:

I disagree. 14AP is enough, even if it IS conscripts. And Redoubtable is nice, but two turrets is better.

 

My perspective is that it all depends. Marks one and three both see use in my lists. Mark three is amazing when undamaged....but after 4-5 hits is about the same firepower as the mark one. (And notably more vulnerable due to CC/AA vales, plus add in isolated systems only on 6+.)

China needs an escort option.....badly!

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Oh I understand your reasoning, but experience has taught me that the MK2&3 are just too squishy and easily nullified by concentrated attacks and the Isolated Systems (6) doesn't help with that on the Mk3.

 

But because the Mk1 has Redoubtable its not concentrated on as much, because what's the point? It's not losing any offensive power. And the 14AP turns it into more of a boarding threat. So its not really a priority target until its too late.

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On September 30, 2016 at 10:43 PM, Presidente said:

You can use the tug boats from the operational assets, they are ok:)

 

While technically true, they look so out of place in my fleet, or as an escort. So I tend not to use 'me. But the point is a solid one for sure.

 

Still, a Chinese escort would not be amiss. (Even if no model....a mk-2 frigate hull based model with escort stats and attachment only would be lovely.)

 

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On ‎1‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 6:34 PM, BuckDharma said:

 

My perspective is that it all depends. Marks one and three both see use in my lists. Mark three is amazing when undamaged....but after 4-5 hits is about the same firepower as the mark one. (And notably more vulnerable due to CC/AA vales, plus add in isolated systems only on 6+.)

China needs an escort option.....badly!

For what it's worth I think it would be interesting to give the Dun Floating Bastion the MAR: Attachment (CF: Large Naval 1) along with an option for all three marks of the Jian to purchase a Rampart Generator for some additional points.  This would principally allow a cool model to get more table time, but also see greater use of the Rampart 'Great Wall' option, make the MKI boarding/defensive threat a bit stronger, make the MK II rocket attack better and give all three marks a boost to their close range flame attacks.

I'd also suggest the Dragon be made a low-level flyer to get it some more table time in naval games, as it would be a great flying medium hunter in this role.

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On 17/01/2017 at 3:30 AM, Pugwash said:

For what it's worth I think it would be interesting to give the Dun Floating Bastion the MAR: Attachment (CF: Large Naval 1) along with an option for all three marks of the Jian to purchase a Rampart Generator for some additional points.  This would principally allow a cool model to get more table time, but also see greater use of the Rampart 'Great Wall' option, make the MKI boarding/defensive threat a bit stronger, make the MK II rocket attack better and give all three marks a boost to their close range flame attacks.

I'd also suggest the Dragon be made a low-level flyer to get it some more table time in naval games, as it would be a great flying medium hunter in this role.

I was just about to write about all of these. My only addendum to this would be to allow the Dun to attach both models to a large. The only reason you would want to attach the Dun to a model is to protect that model from incoming fire. If you attach only one model to a large model and give the large model the option to have a Rampart would be pointless, because the large model doesn't gain any benefit. So where would the point be in ever attaching just one? 

The Dun come in a Squadron of 2 for a reason. There'd be no point in their generator otherwise. 

Sure, it makes it more expensive, but the Chinese are already expensive for little gain. Most of their units are just 'meh' and the dreadnought is about the only model they have that pulls it's weight and by extention the weight if the rest of the orbat along with it. Not bringing it is tantamount to shooting yourself in the foot, in competitive games anyway.

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9 hours ago, Merlin said:

I was just about to write about all of these. My only addendum to this would be to allow the Dun to attach both models to a large. The only reason you would want to attach the Dun to a model is to protect that model from incoming fire. If you attach only one model to a large model and give the large model the option to have a Rampart would be pointless, because the large model doesn't gain any benefit. So where would the point be in ever attaching just one? 

My understanding is that a pair of Rampart Generator "provides a wall of energy that blocks the targeting systems of weapons".  So if you had a Jian battleship with a rampart generator, and 8" away, an attached Dun, then between those two models you could have any other surface models who would benefit from the effect. 

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It would do that. But the point of attaching the Dun to any large is so that large can be protected.  Not provide protection to the rest of the fleet. 

Imagine wanting to have the Dun attached to the dragon. The dragon is fairly weak and having a pair of Dun attached to it would boost both its damage output and protect it for a turn or two so it can get to combat range. 

Give it a Rampart Generator and one a single Dun, the Dragon is still at square one. Sure the rest of the fleet might be fine. But the dragon will be dead.

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Well....they finally did it. They made the Great Wall fortifications. I was on the fence about this, until I saw that they can be damaged by rockets and torps. I dont see other mobile forts not having this exception to forts. you can't hit the windsor or madame liberte with them, but you can hit the chinese wall? I think that changing them to forts is one thing, but allowing them to be hit by rockets and torps when they already are SS (so +1 elevation bonus) is going to be really bad. I just got mine squad together, but I am not wanting to paint and play them now if they are just going to get blown up so easily. Am I overreacting to this? Am I right? It just feels, after doing some dice math, that the Zhanmadao and Dun will be less wall, and more speedbump.

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6 hours ago, Gen. Eric said:

Well....they finally did it. They made the Great Wall fortifications. I was on the fence about this, until I saw that they can be damaged by rockets and torps. I dont see other mobile forts not having this exception to forts. you can't hit the windsor or madame liberte with them, but you can hit the chinese wall? I think that changing them to forts is one thing, but allowing them to be hit by rockets and torps when they already are SS (so +1 elevation bonus) is going to be really bad. I just got mine squad together, but I am not wanting to paint and play them now if they are just going to get blown up so easily. Am I overreacting to this? Am I right? It just feels, after doing some dice math, that the Zhanmadao and Dun will be less wall, and more speedbump.

The Zhan, and Dun used to be affected by rockets/torpedoes anyway,  so no changes there.

Of course, I can no longer use the Zhan as a flagship.

However, the Fortification   classification means that you deploy them as part of the Advanced force. You don't have to go all the way forward, but it does mean that your main force gets a couple of extra inches to deploy, as the "wall" is now outside the 8" zone.

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6 hours ago, Gen. Eric said:

Well....they finally did it. They made the Great Wall fortifications. I was on the fence about this, until I saw that they can be damaged by rockets and torps. I dont see other mobile forts not having this exception to forts. you can't hit the windsor or madame liberte with them, but you can hit the chinese wall? I think that changing them to forts is one thing, but allowing them to be hit by rockets and torps when they already are SS (so +1 elevation bonus) is going to be really bad. I just got mine squad together, but I am not wanting to paint and play them now if they are just going to get blown up so easily. Am I overreacting to this? Am I right? It just feels, after doing some dice math, that the Zhanmadao and Dun will be less wall, and more speedbump.

The Windsor and Lady Liberte might get the same treatment in their final Orbats.

 

But as for the Zhanmadao and Duns? I think it'll be fine. They were given a +1 boost to their CR and HP and are Rugged 1. So they won't be going anywhere in a hurry.

 

The Dreadfort will especially be fine because the Rampart no longer affects friendly units. So you can position 2 Dun right in front of the Dreadfort and shoot with relative impunity, and depending on the faction your up against, it'll take at least one or two turns to destroy the medium bastions (if they are focused down) so the dread with be more or less at full health by the time turn 3 starts. 

 

And as @Nazduruk_Bugzappa has said, they can deploy in Advanced Deployment giving you more room to deploy behind them.

 

 

The +1 to hit them will be rough, but ultimately they have gained a lot more in this edition.

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I am aware of the AD, but the argument was that since forts are immune to torps and rockets, giving it a +1 to hit ballanced out having to deploy it first. It is also the exception to the rule as far as forts being immune to rockets and torps. I don't mind it being a fort, but the extra change is what has me scratching my head.

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Here are the changes so far between version 2.0 and 2.5 for the Dun and Zhan and Tian Long (Dragon)

Zhanmadao Dread fort:

From armored to fortification classification so it can no longer be a commodore model

+1 CR 

+1HP

-1 Rugged Construction

Flamethrower AD reduced from 14/7/-/- to 12/6/-/-

Carrier rules changes with the biggest one being Carrier (12) changing to Carrier (9, 3X4)

Base to hit against the model went from +4 to +3

Dun Bastion Fort:

+1 CR

+1 HP

Base to hit against the model went from +4 to +3

Tian Long Armored Dragon:

+1 HP

Price increase from 135 to 150

Turn template changed from Large to 45 degree

Flamethrower AD reduced from 14/7/-/- to 12/6/-/-

Added a second rocket bombard

 

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On 7/28/2017 at 7:15 PM, BuckDharma said:

With the shift to base 3+ to hit, the Zhan must gain Rugged 2...or even 3. Otherwise the points value is too high, especially when you factor the 3+ in together with being hit by torps and rockets.

 

That is a nerf of truly epic proportions.

I do agree it is a pretty hard nerf, but end stats wise I believe it is completely justified.

Let us take the ship closest to the ZMD in stats as a comparison: The FSA Enterprise.

At 280 points, the Enterprise is a full 40 points cheaper than the Zhan, so for this we shall upgrade it with the Shield (3) Generator, putting the points cost at 310 versus 320.

Both are rolling at 8/13, with 6'' of movement. The ZMD has three more health than the Enterprise, as well as being able to move 360-degrees, is skimming, and has no minimum move. 

Defense-wise, it will take an average of 14 dice to crit the ZMD, while the Enterprise takes a substantially more 20! Without calculating for movement use, the ZMD is at a significant disadvantage because it is much easier to get 14 dice on a single roll than it is to get 20.

In terms of AP, AA, CC, and IR, the Enterprise is rolling at 10/8/5/8, while the ZMD is rolling at 10/6/6/6. While the ZMD is only minutely tougher to torpedoes, it is weaker to rockets.

The ZMD, however, does have Security Posts (3), which allows it some safety from boarding threats.

 

In terms of firepower, the Enterprise has three gun turrets at 12/10/8/6, producing a linked firepower of 27/23/19/15 inclusive of Sustained Fire (3), as well as two rocket batteries at 7/8/9/0 for a linked fire of 11/12/14/0. It also has a broadside putting out a piddly 9/7/5/0. 

The ZMD has two concussive gun turrets at 15/13/11/9, producing a linked firepower of 23/20/17/14, as well as three rocket batteries at 0/6/7/8 for a linked fire of 0/12/14/16. It also has four heavy flamethrowers in the four cardinal directions throwing out 12/6/0/0. 

But wait, there's more! The ZMD has full Redoubtable, meaning it will shrug off any damage far more than the Enterprise ever will, its two gun turrets, Ack-Ack, and CC batteries firing long after a less hardy ship would have gone down. In addition, it also has Isolated Systems (4+), letting it bounce those pesky critical hits, half of the time anyway. The ZMD is also Massive +1, due to surface skimmer, and can therefore see over Large models without obstruction. As such, I'm sure we can agree that the overall firepower of the ZMD in every range band surpasses that of the Enterprise, not inclusive of that nonsense deadeye gunnery commodore trait.

 

Of course, the ZMD is also a fortification, meaning two major things: It is deployed advanced, and as such, it cannot have a commodore on it. Being placed in Advanced Deployment means that a player not only will likely move it slightly further up compared to the rest of their force (and as such it will get shot more), but it will also get shot more compared to the Enterprise. But with it's 360-degree movement, it can actually retreat at full speed as well.

 

Now, let's talk about the utility bits.

The ZMD has a Rampart Generator for... you know, great wall stuff. That's really what it was built for, anyway. With it not affecting friendlies anymore, it can do what it was built to do with little fear.

The un-upgraded ZMD is a Carrier 4, with one wing of 4 planes. Useful, but not that useful.

Upgraded to 385 points (of course, no longer within the points range of the Enterprise), the ZMD gets Carrier 9, with a host of three wings of 4 planes each.

 

In conclusion, the ZMD at 320 points is an incredibly versatile ship that is very resistant to battle damages, but overall a little less tanky than its naval counterparts. Its ability to field planes cannot be understated, as even the single wing of 4 gives you DOUBLE the activations that its contemporaries would provide. It's firepower is still above average for its price, and redoubtable/tertiary weapon systems and auxiliaries means its putting out the same amount of hurt turn after turn. Being a universal model, it has no problems sitting on terrain, and can quickly move behind islands to hide should it need to. Still a solid choice, but no longer blatantly undercosted as before.

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5 hours ago, BuckDharma said:

With the shift to base 3+ to hit, the Zhan must gain Rugged 2...or even 3. Otherwise the points value is too high, especially when you factor the 3+ in together with being hit by torps and rockets.

 

That is a nerf of truly epic proportions.

Agreed. It's too expensive to be worth it now, in my opinion.

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I'm very glad that some checks and balances are set to the none major factions. Cuz at first glance the ZMD still seems very much overpowred.

 

The ZMD as discussed here actually still seems vastly overpowered. I haven't played it, but the US enterprice is one of the better models out there, and jet the ZMD seems far better. Just to list a few things.

As defense, the ZMD does not have shield(3) and it is a fortification compared to the enterprice, but it does have

  +3HP

 +Redoubtable on all weapons. That is a BIG bonus.

 +isloated systems

+ security posts(3)

---

On firepower, it is massively better

-Rockets causes fire & are concussive.

-Primary guns are concussive.

Concussive firepower has increased in value.

-The flamethrowers are nasty.

And it is a carrier. Which isn't neglible either.

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@Grand-Stone, just think of all you could field instead of spending points on the ZMD and all you would gain from that, more activations, more targets to be shot at and shoot back, ability to project threat in multiple areas simultaneously, etc. This is too many eggs in one basket. Or rather one large ostrich egg (an already cracked egg, mind you) in one basket. And yes, the ZMD may very well be better than that one model you chose, but the ZMD does tend to cost much more, so I hope it is a better model than a model that costs 3/4 as much.

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But you pay extre for the spesific abilities. Without anything, it is on par with the enterprice with shield at almost the same cost. I have played against the Enterprice a lot, and I find that one to be a very powerful model, almost overpowered. So find a model which is even better,...

 

 

That being said, I have never played for or against it, and it might be that the fortification +1 to be hit is what makes it balanced. Cuz it is a severe penalty.

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