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Official Thread: Chinese Federation

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I had my first full scale game with the new Chinese air models and dragon involved this weekend. It was a massive 4000 point two day affair, Chinese Federation vs. FSA.

 

Before I go into impressions of the newer stuff, let me also second the motion for a new large/massive Chinese naval vessel as part of at least one more new box. (It is true that having only one large, and no massive naval model option is a real bummer.) Having your only dreadnought model be core for land theater only is a bummer. A heavy battleship would do just fine thank you! I know this will not be happening soon, as I am sure the release schedule for the coming months is all planned out and filled with expansions for fleets that did not just get some attention like China has received.

 

One other shorter term option might be to allow a single Zhanmadao to be part of a naval core in games 1500+ or something? I am not asking for that per-se...but if nothing else that would do even as a shorter term fix. Also, yet another Mark for the Jian won't cut it.....I need a different model, not just two options for the same model.

 

 

Okay...first real action impressions of new goodies.

1. The Dragon is as good as I hoped. What I mean is that it is very strong, but not so powerful as to cause complaining that it is too good for 150 points. Mine lived to get "stuck in", and was able to bite an FSA heavy battleship in half. (It had 4 damage when I made contact, and the dragon finished it off nicely.) On the other hand, I also got into base contact with a Liberty battleship, and it failed to make a scratch on it in robot combat. (I did still get a damage with the heavy flamer though.) All in all, I enjoyed the model a lot, and if it now becomes a massive fire attraction, it will still help me to get my cruisers into close range...a win win. (This game, the cruisers got hit on the way in, but the dragon got less attention.) 7 inch movement is a little slow. Had I not gotten a TAC card to resolve, I would not have gotten into contact with a target until turn 4....and that was with a good initial position and movement choices. I was lucky that my opponent had used a lot of cards by late turn 3 when I moved the dragon...and even then he let me go for it because I had a 66% chance to get enough move to make my goal...and a 33% chance to fail. He let the TAC resolve and it worked out for me.

 

2. The Feilong sky fortress is wonderful. Sure it has only a carrier value of 6, and the Savannah I was up against has 9...but so what. This thing is over fantastic over all. I am already used to focusing on 90-degree front arcs....so getting used to into a slightly tight window for getting after a dread or BB with all the guns was no problem. Against smaller targets, splitting up fire is a breeze. Rugged-2 gives it decent toughness with the 6 DR. I kept it at obscured until turn 4 to lengthen it's lifespan. (On a side note, I was rammed by an FSA Valley...possibly the best air to air ramming match-up I have ever been involved with.) If the Node projector functioned more than once, it would be almost criminal.....muahahaha....

 

3. I enjoyed the Chi Long assault fliers a lot also. They are expensive...and I did not board with them for fear of reverse-boarding actions that might prize me at 160 points a pop...scary! But I was able to get in with a full group of bombs, and use flamers, and even the fury gens once. Good fun.

 

4. I was very happy with the Zhulong small interceptors. I brought them is as part of my flanking force at obscured, and they were so hard to hit there, and fast enough, to get into action at full strength. They arrived on turn two and did nothing save get into position. I swarmed the FSA dread with them on turn 3 at full strength...granted only the one damage of course. But since the dread has taken a couple of hits already, and I added on a couple of fires, corrosion...it had a big impact. After losing one of the group of five, I got in another nice strike on an FSA carrier on turn four for damage + counters again. They are a nice small variation to add to fleets that are fun, and hard enough to hit that you have a legit chance to get into range once and be able to actually do something to a big target. (Or a couple of medium/smalls.) The high AA value lets them seem too hard a target to mess with for enemy fighters as well. I was facing some FSA Lee scout air ships...with aerial hunter....but they were on the far side of an 8 foot board from my flanking side.....so I never had to tussle with them. I think any aerial hunting model would probably cut through these like the proverbial knife through butter if they focused in on them at full or near full strength.

 

 

All in all, I really like the new stuff. Not so powerful as to cause a lot of whining by your opponents, and quite useful enough to feel very good about putting into the field.

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Hey Squirrel!

 

My issue is not in 1000 or under games actually, it is more generally about naval core construction and having a single large massive no matter the fleet size. But let's look at 1K points.

 

I have to get the Jian BB for naval core game, which is what I play most of the time. There is no other option. I could also get the Zhan dread. Assuming I do not upgrade at all, that will run me 280 points.

 

So now I have spent 465 points of my 1000 on just large/massive models.

 

Let's say I go with three basic Dao cruisers for a medium choice. That runs me 225, so now I have spent 690.

 

I need two squads of smalls, if I go cheap, I can squeeze in 4 frigates and 4 destroyers, that runs me 280.

 

I am at 970 now....which allows me to upgrade the dreadnought to carrier 8 for an even 1000 points.

 

I do not actually love this kind of list. It might be good for tournament though. I dislike any list at 1K or more in which I do not have two medium selections. The only thing I like less is having only one small selection. (What I mean is that I can have two mediums in a list like this, if I swap out the frigates for a battle cruiser for example...but then I would have only 4 smalls...even if it were legal, no thanks.)

 

A lot of this is due to the fact that the Chinese carrier naval vessel is a medium, but the only dread is a land model. It leaves a gaping hole in the orbat for naval large/massive options. So I strongly support one more large or massive for naval use. I personally do not think it must be a dread, though that would be fine. I think that because the Jian BB is so unique....broad side primaries, zero turrets, etc.....a heavy BB might work well. One that has three turrets similar/slightly better than the battle cruiser, a rocket battery, and some mediocre broadsides, with rugged-2 and mostly similar base stats to the Jian, with maybe HP-9. (Or two dread-like quality turrets.)

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Can you have Zhan in 1k when core is naval?

 

Should be no problem right? 1K core naval can have up to 400 points of non-core. That is enough for a Zhan.

 

What it does mean though is you cannot have a core naval force with both a DN and much of any air presence at 1K. If you want to play with some air, no dread allowed in your list. Literally if you have the Zhan in a 1K core naval list, there is no air unit you could possible field at full strength. (I believe the closest you could come is a group of 4 of the new interceptors, for 100 points, or a pair of the flying bombard for 120, with a base Zhan for 280. Anything else goes over the 40% max for non-core.)

 

Really in a 1K sort of list, my issue is that if you bring a dread you must still also bring the BB as your core large/massive. (A total of 465 points before you take any sort of upgrades.) That means you will probably be short on either smalls or mediums. I ignore this kind of issue with my typical lists, and skip the Zhan in favor of a pair of Jian BB's.

 

The new models help a bit, as you can now bring out a Jian and either a Feilong sky fortress or a robot dragon for 150-165 points. But if the people you happen to play with constantly throw out dreads at 1K points in core naval...what a hassle for a China player.

 

I do not think a good balanced core naval list is possible at 1K with a Zhan dread. That is why I would like to see a 2015 Chinese release, maybe second half of the year, with a Chinese heavy BB or dread s part of it.

 

This is not a complaint, but rather an expression of love for the Chinese federation. It is a simple fact of the Chinese navy having only a single large option, as the dread is a land model, and the carriers are mediums. I have nothing against the uniqueness of those vessel designs at all. I like them! I just would like the opportunity to throw yet more money at my Chinese fleet in the form of one more naval large/massive, so as to be able to have at least two naval large/massive options.

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While I can understand that people wish to get further units I am not quite sure the CF really have so few options for 1000 points. One could go without Dread and use double BB or go BB + Dragon/Sky Fortress which frees some points. Or you could go double frigates instead of destroyers + frigates and save some points there. Nevertheless in the end it will be difficult to get 2/2/2 large/mediums/smalls. But many nations struggle to field the optimum with two (full squads) each of large/massive, mediums and small models. For example, the LoiS simply can't do it at 1000 points even with the cheapest choices and without Carrier/MTBs).

 

There are different solutions for the problem. One would be to play at 1250 which might be the "better" standard game size. It grants the basic 2/2/2 approach and some variaton for all nations and helps to balance the effects of fielding expensive models/squads like dreads or deathstar units while in a 1000 point game with a pumped up dread the game tends to be all about the Dread or avoiding it.

 

Playing at 1000 points still seems standard in many player groups and as it is sometimes hard to change habits many groups prefer to stick to the 1000 points. I do love to play at 1000 points too as it forces you to make a decision in fleet building and most fleet compositions at 1000 points have at least one weak spot. So one could just embrace the "downside" and see it as the fluffy challenge that admirals have to to deal with limited resources.

 

R

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I also agree...my position is not really about 1000 point games. That was more an exercise I looked at in responding to another post. The 1K fleet issue is vastly helped by the air box. Using the sky fortress as a 2nd large is so much lower cost than a dread. (Frankly i would be annoyed by players who always take a dread at 1k or less....seems boring.) But the point above was that you could do a Zhan at 1K...which you can....but because you also must take a BB for naval core, my point was that taking a Zhan and meeting core requirements makes for an awfully limiting 1K list. (I personally would almost never consider a Zhan at anything under 1200 points.)

 

But I do think some sort of large or massive naval model is needed for CF. I love the uniqueness of the Zhan dread and medium carriers. No reason to change that. I am very open to some fun design choice for another naval large+. I am just noting that for all the size China has reached as a power, it is...odd...to have a single naval large, and zero naval massive options. It is a hole worthy of filling. (BB class support vessel? Sure! Assault carrier maybe? Yes please! Heavy BB? Absolutely....naval dread, sure. Anything could work with a good design concept.)

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There was mention in the list for 3 marks of battleship, even if (last time I looked) the stats for 2 of them were the only ones listed. The fleet might not need other large ships yet

 

Do we have to wait for the books to be released too see the mk3 version of the Jian? :)

 

...the Jian BB is so unique....broad side primaries, zero turrets, etc.....a heavy BB might work well. One that has three turrets similar/slightly better than the battle cruiser, a rocket battery, and some mediocre broadsides, with rugged-2 and mostly similar base stats to the Jian, with maybe HP-9. (Or two dread-like quality turrets.)

 

Not that I have any insider information, but I just got the new Battle Fleet boxed set, and there were 2 extra turret blocks and turrets (once the cruisers/gunships are factored in)...wonder where they might go? ;)

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Just thought id chime in as this is now my main force i play and I'm having a whale of a time with it... tried three lists now including some 'silly' ones which still managed to get victories... 

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Just thought id chime in as this is now my main force i play and I'm having a whale of a time with it... tried three lists now including some 'silly' ones which still managed to get victories... 

I've been playing around with some lists as well but am currently finding it hard to get close enough to the enemy to make use of my flamethrowers, Bastions move slowly and die quickly :-(

 

What have you been experimenting with?

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If you can get all 4 flamethrowers targeting something in the same activation, you win the game. Doesn't matter what the actual outcome is, the moral victory is all yours!

 

I've been experimenting with EoBS and Chinese joint fleets, mainly because I got the Chinese as an extension fleet, rather than starting again from scratch. I think the combination of speedy, tough Blazing Suns and slower, more durable Chinese has a fair amount going for it!

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ok well, right, where to start, destroyers are fantastic, use them grouped with frigates in front on a flank.. I have tried the bastions vs the French, and they incredibly survived into the third turn, they usually are the first things to die and i am not sold on them, once one is gone, they are just cruiserish.. saying that, they causes a massive headache for him. I just played a list vs KoB with all my pretty models for a laugh, one BB, Flying Fortress and dragon. Too much really, probably would have got the win but ran out of time. The dragon didn't even get anywhere near him, they simply ran away.

 

I think the best option is 2 BBs and the fortress for the fury node. 1 BC and then a mix of frigates, destroyers and or support cruisers, don't bother with the cruisers or gunships, waste of time IMO..

 

I will be trying some aerial bombards again, but I've only used them in one game to take out smalls and pesky escorts, then they died horribly...

 

But those destroyers, everyone hates em... if you put them with the frigates they really don't know which to shoot at because both are lethal. and rugged construction, lolling all the way to the bunker.. :) remember the Fortress is Rugged 2 which really annoy your opponents, just keep him obscured then as soon as hes in RB3 just banzai it straight at his heavies.. he'll **** himself and probably forget about those BB broadsides lol.

 

Another thing i do is ALWAYS spam dive bombers, with swarm tactics they can just about hold their own in dogfights.. it forces your opponent to take fighters, which, well, last i heard could sink surface ships.. 

 

Lots of options, cant wait to see what the mkIII is like.

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I think the best option is 2 BBs and the fortress for the fury node. 1 BC and then a mix of frigates, destroyers and or support cruisers, don't bother with the cruisers or gunships, waste of time IMO..

 

 

I have to stand up in support of the incredibly excellent Dao cruiser. I use the gunship pretty infrequently, though I like it fine. Why? because the Dao is a sweet sweet machine.

 

Don't get me wrong, the destroyer is fantastic. I love the Jian BB....the frigates....the force is filled to teh bring with awesome-sauce. Robot dragon you say? Sky fortress you say? Yeah....really fun units to put in the field.

 

But lest we get away from the point here, let us consider the plain old regular cruiser, the Dao. Why is it great?

1. More firepower than you think: If you can bring both the front guns and broadsides to bear, look out.

2. Amazing boarding threat: 24 marines, conscripts or not, are a huge weapon to bring to bear.

 

I actually put these and a BB in front of some of my destroyers and frigates to begin the game often too. Bastions may not be great for offense, but they do absorb firepower very nicely. I bring forward my Dao, along side a BB, and some Chui carriers regularly. I let my opponent decide what pain he wishes to suffer. If he ignores the Dao because he wants to get after the BB and or the carriers, plus take down the Bastion shield....I am a happy camper. I will gladly rush on ahead with all these units, and open spaces as I go into late turn one, then have my smalls rush ahead to be ready for early turn two strikes.

 

If my opponent then focuses on all those dangerous smalls o turn two, which are rightly to be feared, my unassuming Dao will advance later in teh turn and open up a large hole in something. I am also then in position for an early turn activation on turn three with a full Dao squadron....which is almost universally a mistake if my opponent let it happen. Turn three I rush in, board with 24 marines or close to it, fire off both broadsides if I am very lucky, and the main guns. If I get this opportunity, it can often be a game defining activation.

 

The other thing my Dao bring is survivability for my other vessels if my opponent does recognize the danger they are in and focuses on the cruisers. Bringing down the bastions and then taking down a couple of my Dao takes some fairly major firepower focus. This means my smalls and or Jian are closing in fairly clean....and so even though the Dao is not taking my opponent down directly, they are indirectly assuring my other assets deliver a pretty big hammer.

 

I love the Dao. (Even though the Yue destroyer is admittedly my favorite. The psychological impact of two 13 dice range one flame thrower attacks, and possibly a bonus broadside, is just glorious.)

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I am new to dystopian wars and have decided to start out playing Chinese Federation.   Any suggestions?

 Hi and welcome to the game. 

 

 

 

A few basics: If you have not worked with resin models before, have a look at the Hobby section of this forum. In particular, look at how to wash models before painting.

 

 

Unless you have been introduced to the game by a group, try and  find one. It it far easier to learn with some help!

 

I would recommend the naval battle group as a starting point- 

http://shop.spartangames.co.uk/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=DWAL51

 

The Chinese are a good choice for a beginner- they are tough and relatively easy to use

 

And finally, ignore naysayers, get stuck in and enjoy yourself!

 

james

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Thank you for the advice.   So far been having a great time playing and painting the figures.   

 

Can you guys recommend some places to read up on CF naval/air fleet construction and tactics? 

 

 

-Tanis

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Thank you for the advice.   So far been having a great time playing and painting the figures.   

 

Can you guys recommend some places to read up on CF naval/air fleet construction and tactics? 

 

 

-Tanis

 

 

Round here! Have a look at the fleets people field, and the way they use them in this thead and in battle reports.

 

James

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Thank you for the advice.   So far been having a great time playing and painting the figures.   

 

Can you guys recommend some places to read up on CF naval/air fleet construction and tactics? 

 

 

-Tanis

Well I can point you to a thing I recently tried out

 its a team thing between 3 Chui class aircraft carriers and 4 Luxing Aerial Bombards

Each Chui can start 4 SAS make it three figter wings of 3 craft each (You can also try dive bombers but its a little bit more risky) and add 3 Reconaisance planes to the mix.

If you manage to put in a Fei Long Skyfortress in the Mix you also can get a 4th Recon plane and presumedly a Full wing of dive Bombers.

 

The Luxing and all vessels sporting primary weapons can benefit from the Spotters for indirect fire (As Indirect fire needs no line of sight you have a good chance of accurate fire without breaking the cloud cover) You will get lots of activations in turn one to booth, and since Chinese fighters have swarm tactics they should be a Handfull even in squads of three.

 

 

Kind Regards

Hunger

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