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British Airforce?

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I think the problem here consists of "oooo Pretty" - And my friend wont go off the idea.

 

Is there a way to do a force that contains the Illustrious, Eagle, Doncaster and Merlins ? with the rest being sea?

 

Doesnt need to be overly powerful, as it will just be used for fun games.

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Expect to lose a lot of games if you try this. The British air stuff is apparently deliberately bad. Its part of our "Faction Flavour". The only air units I'd even consider are the Illustrious (although the avenger is clearly better in most respects) and the Merlins (but they are a shade over costed if you ask me). The Doncasters are useless against air, the Hawks are over costed with weak firepower and mismatching weapon systems and MARs and the Eagle is lacking in firepower. All our air choices except the Merlins have at least one weapon system primarily used against surface targets (and indeed naval surface in many cases) which means in air on air engagements we are always paying for useless weapon systems, which wouldn't be so bad if the units were worth their points cost in the first place, sadly they are mostly not even close.

 

The best thing that KoB players can do is to steer clear of air units and hope that poor sales will eventually prompt Spartan to reverse the bizarre decision to exclude us from competitive play for a full 3rd of the game and either release some new worthwhile units or rework the existing ones.

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Yes thats possible but I'd do it the other way.  Start off with naval core then add the Eagle to baby sit a flanking squadron of Frigates (due to its Guardian Gen), replace the Avenger with Illustrious, run a small unit of Merlins to help keep TFT's off your other stuff.  Doncasters keep to a squadron for cleaning up units.

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Air power for the KoB is going to be tough and I've never had much luck with it. Merlins and Doncaster are the best units. Illustrious is good but not as good as a Avenger. Hawks are over priced and under gunned and don't even get me started on the Eagle. With that all said I use this list just for fun and sometimes just to throw off my opponent for a bit until they realize how bad this list is.

 

  • Illustrious
  • Eagle
  • Doncaster x3
  • Doncaster x3
  • Merlins x5
  • Merlins x4
  • Airfield

990 points

 

Use the Eagles and Doncasters on a flank with the Eagle supporting as the whole formation Bombs and Torps your opponents battle-line. Hold the Illustrious back and with it and the Airfield cycling TF squadrons bomb the **** out of anything that gets close. The Merlins hunt opposing TF, small naval and sub units.

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The Eagles just not worth it.

You are better to spend the points on a BC.

In a ground game, the only use I have found for the Eagle is to use it as a shot magnet so that my MkII can get into range,

But I dont think my opponents will fall for that again.

It was sort of a one shot trick.

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The Eagles just not worth it.

You are better to spend the points on a BC.

In a ground game, the only use I have found for the Eagle is to use it as a shot magnet so that my MkII can get into range,

But I dont think my opponents will fall for that again.

It was sort of a one shot trick.

I totally agree, the Eagle isn't worth its points, even more so now we have the Hoods. The guardian generator is ok, but one dice isn't enough to provide a statistically significant level of protection and even if it was at 7" its only very marginally faster than the much much more point efficient Battleship (or the landship on land) which means it will struggle to keep up with anything that might actually benefit from its protection.. 

 

Edit* The real kicker for the Eagle is the points more or less wasted on the mine and bomb weapons and skilled minelayer and armoured belly MARs when using it against air (IE in a Core Air game). All these "features" are geared towards anti surface warfare meaning they are wasted points in the air game, this would be bad enough if the model could actually compete with our surface models for a spot in a naval game but it can't even do that. Its straight up less useful than any number of our surface ships, and even losses out to the over costed under performing Hawk in a mine laying role leaving  with nothing to add to a naval game at all. This is a theme across our air units with the possible exception of the Merlin and is a real design issue with the Brits.

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It is kind of sad that the cooler the look of a KoB aerial model the higher the "Why the devil would I bring that POS?" factor seems to be. The RAF in this world is, as the Brits say, pants. (Though I really don't see what pants have to do with something being junk.) ;)Particularly when compared to their cross Channel rivals. Even with semi-lucky dice, I really doubt the KoB would stand a chance against the French in AtA combat. Very disappointing.

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Expect to lose a lot of games if you try this. The British air stuff is apparently deliberately bad. Its part of our "Faction Flavour". The only air units I'd even consider are the Illustrious (although the avenger is clearly better in most respects) and the Merlins (but they are a shade over costed if you ask me). The Doncasters are useless against air, the Hawks are over costed with weak firepower and mismatching weapon systems and MARs and the Eagle is lacking in firepower. All our air choices except the Merlins have at least one weapon system primarily used against surface targets (and indeed naval surface in many cases) which means in air on air engagements we are always paying for useless weapon systems, which wouldn't be so bad if the units were worth their points cost in the first place, sadly they are mostly not even close.

 

The best thing that KoB players can do is to steer clear of air units and hope that poor sales will eventually prompt Spartan to reverse the bizarre decision to exclude us from competitive play for a full 3rd of the game and either release some new worthwhile units or rework the existing ones.

I agree with this and also share other people's sad feelings about the 'why?' as to the poor showing of air units. I cannot see why it should be in the faction flavour to create an impotent force. No one else has an entire third of their forces hampered by a complete inadequacy in a stand up fight - alright, the FSA have a so so land force, but they can still compete, the Prussian navy is hard to use, but not impossible to win with. The heaviest defeat I have suffered as the KoB came through using an all Air Force against the EotBS - embarrassingly I destroyed nothing of his, losing my Illustrious, my BB and all my Hawks - partly through some tactical idiocy, but mostly because they could not perform the battlefield role I had assigned them.

KoB players have commonly moaned less on threads than some other nations - but this and the Vanguard does seem to have been an oversight that no amount of pretty new models can rectify.

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And, yes, they are lovely models - which makes it worse. The Eagle is a fantastic model, as is the Illustrious. I wouldn't want to swap these for any other nation on aesthetic value alone.

I also play the RC - the difference in the effectiveness of this nation in all departments is notable. Why the difference?

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I must admit i started DW and just because of the look of the air i took british.................

However not long after i switched to RC a mix of tactics that didn't suit me and all the really cool looking models being underperformers............

Now don't get me wrong KoB have some great models stat wise tribals agincourts the bb and the dread all solid units but the pretty stuff eagle vanguard illustrious just dont cut it

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Thing is it appears like Spartan and their play testers think everything is fine as it is so I doubt there will be any changes made in the medium term, about the best we can hope for is that at some point we will get new air models that can hold their own which is frankly very disappointing. I did talk to my group about switching to Russia myself because I was and am getting annoyed by the many poor units we have and the total lack of meaningful core air force, But honestly its more likely I would just drop Dystopian wars altogether if I get annoyed enough by it. 

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Dont forget spartan balances the game faction vs faction, not unit for unit. While the KoB air is lacking, they dont exactly suffer in other areas.

 

If indeed Spartan balance the game faction vs faction as a whole then they are doing it wrong. Dystopian wars is a basically three games in one, its an air game, a land game and sea game or some combination of the three. Its one thing to say faction a has weak small naval but strong medium naval so it balances out. Its another entirely to say faction a has weak naval but strong air because that excludes them from one whole portion of the game. IE if you have weak air it is irrelevant how strong your naval or land is if you are playing a core air game because you can't use those naval units to redress the balance.

 

Further more if a faction has poor units in any given theatre or size then those same units should be cheaper as a result. The fundamental economy of points should always provide the same (or as near as possible) value or the system is broken. If they aren't and unit a has significantly better point value than unit b then why would you ever choose to field unit b?

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If indeed Spartan balance the game faction vs faction as a whole then they are doing it wrong. Dystopian wars is a basically three games in one, its an air game, a land game and sea game or some combination of the three. Its one thing to say faction a has weak small naval but strong medium naval so it balances out. Its another entirely to say faction a has weak naval but strong air because that excludes them from one whole portion of the game. IE if you have weak air it is irrelevant how strong your naval or land is if you are playing a core air game because you can't use those naval units to redress the balance.

 

Further more if a faction has poor units in any given theatre or size then those same units should be cheaper as a result. The fundamental economy of points should always provide the same (or as near as possible) value or the system is broken. If they aren't and unit a has significantly better point value than unit b then why would you ever choose to field unit b?

I think the simplest example to see that the idea of points being universal doesn't apply in DW is to side by side the corvettes stat cards, it is certainly an odd way to balance things that spartan have chosen.

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One thing that I have found interesting is that players say they take the Eagle for its guardian generator to protect their other flyers. Why?

The guardian generator works at all levels.

I find it better to take a Ruler BB or a Landship for the same reason.

 

The Landship in a land game is almost as fast or faster if there's a road. It can shoot to RB4 and is cheaper.

 

The Ruler in a naval game for 60pts more, has twice as many turrets with better stat's and torpeodo's.(instead of going obs trade a turret for a second gen)

 

In a core air game you are s*****d, but even then take one eagle and fill out on non core.

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If indeed Spartan balance the game faction vs faction as a whole then they are doing it wrong. Dystopian wars is a basically three games in one, its an air game, a land game and sea game or some combination of the three. Its one thing to say faction a has weak small naval but strong medium naval so it balances out. Its another entirely to say faction a has weak naval but strong air because that excludes them from one whole portion of the game. IE if you have weak air it is irrelevant how strong your naval or land is if you are playing a core air game because you can't use those naval units to redress the balance.

 

Further more if a faction has poor units in any given theatre or size then those same units should be cheaper as a result. The fundamental economy of points should always provide the same (or as near as possible) value or the system is broken. If they aren't and unit a has significantly better point value than unit b then why would you ever choose to field unit b?

I agree again with your points here. It seems that the focus on making the newer navies competitive has also incorporated a lot more fairness across the board. Both the RoF and the RC can cut it in any theatre - they have weaknesses and strengths in all areas, but this creates their national characteristics - not denying them a whole theatre of conflict and thus nullifying the point of taking any air forces.

The KoB has had a number of poor units that have been offset by better units - the BB initially was poor but got fixed with an AP buff up and the useful Guardian Generator, the Vanguard remains the poorest faction special unit, woefully inadequate at its job, but then the naval forces have excellent frigates, a powerful DN, the fearsome Orions and the Agincourts, as well as Lord Hoods. So, altogether, these poorer units are covered. KoB has great land forces - lots to recommend it, as well as access to equally viable reinforcements from Canada.

However, to suggest these two forces are so wonderful that KoB needs to be given an overpriced and undergunned Air Force seems ludicrous. As I mentioned before, neither the RoF nor the RC have this handicap, so why should KoB?

Very simply - I don't think this was ever fully thought through. KoB has been tooling about since the beginning of the game - maybe this made it easy to overlook game balance with air units? In any case, nothing I can think of can explain why Hawk rotors are so flakey, the Eagle is utterly underwhelming, and the Illustrious is an expensive error to take over the Avenger. The game is so much fun, that we tend to overlook these glaring issues with game balance initially, but I think the aesthetic quality of the models, which are lovely, has overcome the playability of these models - they simply do not compete against the likes of the EotBS - and they should be able to.

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I'm not confident that Spartan play test individual arenas to insure they are balanced against each other my reasoning is that I remember reading a French ground based article by them that talked about forcing your opponent to take air models in order to be able to compete and how this played to Frances strengths as their air could walk all over other peoples.

 

My next examples are the Doncaster and the Hawk, the Doncaster is great support in a naval game and the Hawk is solid supporting a ground force as mines are dangerous there. Both suck at fighting other planes.

 

So I think that the British air was balanced as a supporting arm and Spartan have chosen (kind of understandably)  to concentrate on new units rather than rebalancing old ones.

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