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thejrade

Mines Even More Useless Than I Thought?

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That's one of my favourite fights from the late seasons. Man those Vorchans have good intercept values :P. I always pictured Mine Launchers as looking/working like that.

That's one of the reasons why I think an Aquan R&D cruiser would be something with mine launcher (2) and have strength 5 or 6 mines. Maybe take CJs improved Storm stats and toss on Mine Launchers; now that would be something that lets you control the battlefield a little. Give them drone mines and they'd be...maybe....70 points each?

Zak

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Pez: Limiting the drive-by is a byproduct of making a stronger mine field gotta give and take to be fair. It is better because you can link 2 ships mines together and have the others can lay mines at normal value.

Mines do track targets that is what the 4" represents, imo

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That's one of the reasons why I think an Aquan R&D cruiser would be something with mine launcher (2) and have strength 5 or 6 mines. Maybe take CJs improved Storm stats and toss on Mine Launchers; now that would be something that lets you control the battlefield a little. Give them drone mines and they'd be...maybe....70 points each?

Cool. I like it. It's flavourful and unique.

Give it some weird weakness. The other R+Ds have them. Maybe no fore guns, 1 crew, something like that.

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Cool. I like it. It's flavourful and unique.

Give it some weird weakness. The other R+Ds have them. Maybe no fore guns, 1 crew, something like that.

I believe if you use the Mine launcher you can't use the gun in that arc in the same turn. Keep the crew/ap allotment standard per the Storm (3/2 or maybe even go with 3/1). So if you gave it forward arc mine launchers it would either launch mines -or- use it's better forward guns but couldn't do both.

Zak

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Pez: The limited drive by was for examples like this - Relthoza Brood & Three escorts get a drive-by from Hydra and three remoras. If they can do traditional drive by and link, then they could (with good placement/luck) get an AD11 attack on ALL those ships with no counter - wasting three escorts and damaging (probably critting) the BB in one shot - the Hydra also gets main weapons fire, so this is WAY too powerful.

However limiting to dropping outside of "activation" zone just means they nees to drop it 4" ahead of the Brood's current course. When activated, the Brood is unlikely to be able to avoid slamming into it, but the escorts can hard turn around it (with 8" command distance they can do this OK). This then gets a good attack on the BB, but lets the little 'uns get away (maybe). That might have a secondary effect of denuding the brood of estra PD fire for an activation or preventing a pending boarding assault by said escorts.

Yeah, I understand.

Your suggestion puts a different spin on mines. I predict they'd would be better used against bigger, slower ships just like in your example. It changes the focus of mines, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. This leads to interesting tactical planning, thinking ahead a few turns and makes positioning more important. Ships that can't avoid them will be in bigger trouble with the higher AD. This may prove too much for a squad of cruisers. An AD11 or 13 attack on 3-4 ships would be killer. This part would need some testing. Cruisers are more likely to get out of the way than a battleship but I'd want to see how that played out. A slow battleship can sometimes delay running into them by going 1/2 speed. Faster cruisers may not have this option. I suppose there should be some sort of cap on the number that can link, a rule that they must link if able, and maybe no random cascading explosions -- they all blow. It should still be easy to clear with a sacrificial flight or frigate that way.

In contrast, Spartan's stated intent with mines (from V1.1) is as a small ship deterrent -- to shake them off your tail. I'm not sure it that really works out like that. I find frigates etc usually don't make it intact to the enemies rear, the big ships are maneuverable enough to bring better side guns into arc, mines are easily dodged, at most you lose 1 ship from mines in V2, and usually you have your own frigates to handle the enemy. I'd propose it's not very successful as intended.

So, I don't know. Is it better to change the focus of mines, or try to alter them to fit the intended use instead? :huh:

To get them to work well against smaller ships, we'd need more flexibility to place them in the right spot, or have them blow at the right moment. Yet keep the strength low so they do not become super weapons.

From a personal point of view:

It would be sad to lose the drive-byes as a side effect of any changes. I love drive-byes! :wub:

I've found the aggressive use of mines as bombs rather unpredictably useful and fun.

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As they are mines only detur Frigates and even then not by much. Most Frigates can get out of the way with ease so they do not really care. Even if the Hydra and Remora drive by worked like that then you will have to sink the points into it which can get expensive, and then your oppenent will try to stop it early on if they can help it. I am in the group that says this will lead to more tactical play which I for one is ALWAYS in favor for.

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Ugh, the Aquans already 'waste' a ship dedicated to mines (their escort), why do it again on something potentially useful like an R&D cruiser?

The idea is to give it enough punch to make it worthwhile, not worthless. The escort is pants because it can usually only drop mines either behind it or near it. Behind it hopes the enemy goes that way, and near it just begs to have the escort blow itself up.

Now being able to toss S5 or S6 mines 12" ahead of you might actually make something useful happen.

Zak

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missile pooooods...just make them attack in RB1 and potentially link fire from all mines in range. Downside, same as with ships..they either focus fire on 1 ship for effect or spread fire, and with 4AD value it's better to link. But yeah, I think drop-able oneshot torp or Primary weapon makes more sense. it'd even make aquan cruisers sensible option.

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Just kick it back to the V1 mine rules. They worked, they weren't gimped, and I don't think I ever heard anyone say they were overpowered that way. Though on three occasions I've seen a group of four, 4AD mines wipe out entire cruiser squadrons! With no crits involved either.

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Just kick it back to the V1 mine rules. They worked, they weren't gimped, and I don't think I ever heard anyone say they were overpowered that way. Though on three occasions I've seen a group of four, 4AD mines wipe out entire cruiser squadrons! With no crits involved either.

I have to admit I liked the mine rules in v1 better.

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Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't the V1 rules universally worse in every way imaginable for the mine laying player? You could 'hop' over them (which I always hated) and they never went off unless you began or ended your movement within 4" and when one popped they popped every one near them regardless of whether or not there were any enemy nearby (now they only cascade on a 5+).

Am I forgetting something? I'm serious, but why would you want to gimp them even further?

Zak

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They were better IF you managed to drop the mine right on the enemy, so he had no choice but to activate in their range. Aside from that,useless against large vessels, too easy to avoid against mediums and small.

Actually if you drop them on the enemy now then once he activates they still go off. Unless I'm missing something (which I might be). So, even then, they're the same or better...

Zak

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Thought about this a bit and to keep it simple this is what I cam up with.

Keep mines as is value wise,

change mines are layed in REAR ARC. no fixed rear

THEN

change cascading rules to the following.

Any mine with in 2 inches of the initial mine that was triggered combine fire. Any mine within 2-4 inches of the initial mine link fire. Additional mines trigger only recieve a blast radius of 2' and DO NOT trip anymore mines.

You CANNOT combine and link. (otherwise you break the game and made a 3d minesweeper with awesome sculpts)

You must combine first if possible. (logically if a mine goes off with some right next to it those are more likely to take the shrapnel, blast wave, whatever up and prevent mines further away from going off.)

Assuming you trip the center mine...

You could cover up to 12 inches in a straight line with 3 mines but at linked fire so anything with in that covered area would be suffering what ever you roll with 8ad (just like how it works atm one roll for everything)

You put those mines within combine distance so that it's 8inches covered total but at 12 AD.

Now I figured it seems OP at first but if you plant a tight group of mines YES you get tons of ad but they ALL go off. Also I dont know how often you'll spend really laying out mines, so this rewards you potentially if you choose to do so.

It gives the power many want from mines to potentially deal damage to big ships when clustered, or you spread them out for less chance of high hits but still are a threat to small ships trying to move around them.

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you know that sounds interesting that could work ..........but then I am working on my 4 glass of wine. honestly that could work. small clusters of mines in 2's, 3's and maybe 4's for big ships

and 1's and possably 2's for small ones . one question does the rule from V1 still hold w/ mines, where if you enter your own mine field they know it's a friend not foe. I don't have the new book yet so I'm at a bit of a loss. that would be the only hang up. I would speculate at this time so far in the future there would be a way for a mine to know the diff.

what do yall think ?????

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Mines need to be fire and forget, with a simple mechanism that can be resolved quickly when lots of other things are going on.

But that'd totally kill the flavour, whoever would want to use mines if they were just another weapon that ended in the enemy ship exploding? ;)

Sorry :P Anyway, I do like the linking idea in fact.

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If you want an easy way to make a mine being able to damage a squadron composed of multiple ships, Just leave the 4" template centered with the point where the mine was when it was triggered by the first moving ship, resolve the mine attack to all ships around, then resolve the movement of the rest of the ships. If they cross the template, they get attacked again.Once the squadron has finished moving, remove the 4" template. It is possible to avoid the explosion, but their formation is likely to be disrupted and have trouble in linking in the combat segment (imagine it like ships taking evasive actions after seeing the leading ship taking the blast)

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