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thejrade

Mines Even More Useless Than I Thought?

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Can a mine only hit a single ship?

Even if a cunning opponent drops a mine in such a fashion that I cannot avoid it, I can simply move one ship into it's radius, thus allowing the other members of the squadron to escape unharmed. Is this right? We have been houseruling that a mine leaves an 'explosion' lasting throughout a squadron's activation, so if more than one ship could not have evaded the mine, then it will be hit as well. Are we wrong?

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There is no debris cloud or lasting explosion. A mine explodes once a single object comes within range and then vanishes. If you want to cluster hits then drop it right up on a ship with another ship within 4" - that way the second the squad activates it goes off and hits everything in range.

Zak

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It's actually worse than that as you only need a wing to activate a mine. So, fly in some interceptors or fighters etc and kaboom! As flights only suffer damage on natural (and non-exploding) 6's, your flight is probably going to be OK or suffer some small injury - a large group is even unlikely to be driven off.

True, I was just giving a 'best case' example. I played Saturday against a Dindrenzi guy and I managed to use an asteroid field to swing around a cruiser squadron relatively safely into a squad of Victories and I dropped 3 mines all within 4" of his ships (and just outside my own ships). The second he activated they all popped. Managed to get two hull points of damage out of it (out of nine rolls :P) but it can be done and, more importantly, I got behind his ships.

Zak

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Mines are a deterrant. I place several in small areas to force an opponent into an area I have all guns pointed at or risk the mine field ... Yes to hit multiple targets you really need to place them right on a squad so it activates and boom. It house rule like I did were movement is technically happening all at once even though you move one ship at a time. So if one ship of the squad comes within range of the mine. Stop movement bring the others up as you want and see what is hit then keep moving. It move everything as usual just see what goes past the mines blast and before shooting do the mine damage and continue the turn.

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... into a squad of Victories and I dropped 3 mines all within 4" of his ships (and just outside my own ships). The second he activated they all popped. Managed to get two hull points of damage out of it (out of nine rolls :P) but it can be done and, more importantly, I got behind his ships.

:o

I think you are supposed to roll once for each mine, and apply the same score to all three ships.

V2 page 50 "... make ONE roll for ALL models within 4" of the exploding mine ..."

It would say "each" if you were supposed to roll separately. There's also an example to clarify in the next column.

I think it makes a difference, when you get lucky you hurt everything. When you get miracle rolls they make a very big impact. Last game, my opponent scored 3 criticals on 3 Dindrenzi cruisers with one MN5 mine. :wacko:

Mines are awesome. I usually use them like grenades instead of seeding the field. I've found MN5 very effective.

I've also wiped-out entire frigate squadrons (clumped up) with a single MN5.

Granted, I liked it better when they blew at the beginning or end of activation movement. But I just don't use them that way anymore.

The numbers:

MN4 has a 37% chance of scoring enough to damage DR4, and 56% versus DR3

MN5 has a 52% chance of scoring enough for DR4, and 70% versus DR3

Against DR6 MN5 has 23%, and MN4 has 14%. Not so good, but close to 1/5 and 1/6. Battleships can usually ignore mines altogether.

Choose your targets with this in mind.

And remember, they hit frigates and corvettes on 4+. ( ;) hint, hint)

I'd be afraid of increasing the AD too much. Two reasons:

Look at how it would impact the numbers above.

Also it may lead to more defensive play rather than offensive, which risks a boring game. If mines are too effective as an area deterrent, what keeps the opponent from seeding a wall and hiding behind it?

We might get away with +1MN here or there , but I wouldn't go further than that. And it would need thorough testing.

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:o

I think you are supposed to roll once for each mine, and apply the same score to all three ships.

V2 page 50 "... make ONE roll for ALL models within 4" of the exploding mine ..."

It would say "each" if you were supposed to roll separately. There's also an example to clarify in the next column.

I think it makes a difference, when you get lucky you hurt everything. When you get miracle rolls they make a very big impact. Last game, my opponent scored 3 criticals on 3 Dindrenzi cruisers with one MN5 mine. :wacko:

Mines are awesome. I usually use them like grenades instead of seeding the field. I've found MN5 very effective.

I've also wiped-out entire frigate squadrons (clumped up) with a single MN5.

Granted, I liked it better when they blew at the beginning or end of activation movement. But I just don't use them that way anymore.

The numbers:

MN4 has a 37% chance of scoring enough to damage DR4, and 56% versus DR3

MN5 has a 52% chance of scoring enough for DR4, and 70% versus DR3

Against DR6 MN5 has 23%, and MN4 has 14%. Not so good, but close to 1/5 and 1/6. Battleships can usually ignore mines altogether.

Choose your targets with this in mind.

And remember, they hit frigates and corvettes on 4+. ( ;) hint, hint)

I'd be afraid of increasing the AD too much. Two reasons:

Look at how it would impact the numbers above.

Also it may lead to more defensive play rather than offensive, which risks a boring game. If mines are too effective as an area deterrent, what keeps the opponent from seeding a wall and hiding behind it?

We might get away with +1MN here or there , but I wouldn't go further than that. And it would need thorough testing.

Actually you are correct that mines explode immedately when a ship or wing moves into the 4" range. The real problem is how a squadron moves. On page 34 under Moving a Squadron it states that the models are moved Individually. That means that no matter what only one ship will eat a mine.

And that truly males mines the weakest armament in the game.

I think that mines should either:

Explode on activation of the squadron or

Have an increase in AD to compensate for the single ship effect.

What do you all think?

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Yeah, no. Mines are good the way they are. They are not supposed to be powerful. I've wiped out tons of small ship squadrons with a mine drive-by and critted Dindrenzi heavies. All it takes is a couple of lucky sixes. You boost Mines, you make Aquans far too powerful.

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Actually you are correct that mines explode immediately when a ship or wing moves into the 4" range. The real problem is how a squadron moves. On page 34 under Moving a Squadron it states that the models are moved Individually. That means that no matter what only one ship will eat a mine.

Yes! Its a bit annoying. <_<

But I don't bother to seed the field anymore. It didn't work that well (for me) before and it's even more useless now. Too easy to sweep or avoid. My goal now is to drop them on top of the target, with a "fly-by pooping". This works just fine, as long as I can get my own ships out of the blast radius. :wacko:

What I meant was to point out to Zak that you roll once per mine and apply it to all ships, rather than rolling once per ship in the blast.

The example he provided suggested that rolled 9 rolls against 3 ships from 3 mines ... it should only be 3 rolls for 3 mines.

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In space a mine field should be able to make ANY ship captain think twice before going near it. Current FSA Mines are to weak for that. This leads to people just going right through them and not even caring.

As Alex stated he has used a single BB to just eat up enemy mines and just laughed about it all the way home.

The two best fixes I can think of is:

1) Mine Linking; I.E. a squadron of four Storm Class Cruisers can either drop four mine 4's OR link their mines together to increase the density of a mine field and droms a single mine 10.

Another example would be a Hydra w/ Aquan Escort squadron (maxed out of course) could drop four mine 5's or once again increase the density.

2) Veritechc stated have mines hit the entire squadron as the go through it not just the one guy who moves first. Easiest way to do this is to delay the trigger until either the whole squadron moves and then checking which would get hit by the mine or to have the entire squadron tke the hits (if you use the latter mines could get REALLY OP because if you score a crit you would crit all ships in the squadron.)

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In space a mine field should be able to make ANY ship captain think twice before going near it. Current FSA Mines are to weak for that. This leads to people just going right through them and not even caring.

As Alex stated he has used a single BB to just eat up enemy mines and just laughed about it all the way home.

The two best fixes I can think of is:

1) Mine Linking; I.E. a squadron of four Storm Class Cruisers can either drop four mine 4's OR link their mines together to increase the density of a mine field and droms a single mine 10.

Another example would be a Hydra w/ Aquan Escort squadron (maxed out of course) could drop four mine 5's or once again increase the density.

2) Veritechc stated have mines hit the entire squadron as the go through it not just the one guy who moves first. Easiest way to do this is to delay the trigger until either the whole squadron moves and then checking which would get hit by the mine or to have the entire squadron tke the hits (if you use the latter mines could get REALLY OP because if you score a crit you would crit all ships in the squadron.)

Actually I suggested the mines exploding upon the enemies activation. That way where you ended determined your final damage. If you couldn't maneuver out of the minefield then kaboom. It also allows for the "pooping" of mines. You drop them then you have to get away before the enemy activated the squadron. That makes for some fun maneuvering and tactical decisions. Can you gee the Aquan captains face when you decide to move while his mines are just aft of him, lol.

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Y'all are for getting cascading mines as well here I may only have mn 4 on my basic Relthoza cruiser but I place them anywhere along my movement 4 inches from the flight peg as per rules. I make a little 4x4x4 triangle a hip that moves in there may trigger a mine or two and cascade the other ya 4 ad doesn't stack sadly but still three free chances to possible damage something or crit a cruiser squad twice with the mines...hehehe that was great rolling. I honestly think they need better rules for multiple mines going off at once. Then you potentially have more ad from more mines exploding all around a ship but alone a single mine is not much of a threat.

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Actually I suggested the mines exploding upon the enemies activation. That way where you ended determined your final damage. If you couldn't maneuver out of the minefield then kaboom. It also allows for the "pooping" of mines. You drop them then you have to get away before the enemy activated the squadron. That makes for some fun maneuvering and tactical decisions. Can you gee the Aquan captains face when you decide to move while his mines are just aft of him, lol.

I have done that part. . . my mines have yet to hurt me though. . .

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Actually I suggested the mines exploding upon the enemies activation. That way where you ended determined your final damage. If you couldn't maneuver out of the minefield then kaboom. It also allows for the "pooping" of mines. You drop them then you have to get away before the enemy activated the squadron. That makes for some fun maneuvering and tactical decisions. Can you gee the Aquan captains face when you decide to move while his mines are just aft of him, lol.

I don't have the book on my but I thought mines only go off when an enemy model moves within four inches of them so it has to be on an enemy activation. If you drop it on the enemy it wouldn't go off until something either moves into the 4 inches or within the four inches at least that's how I see it.

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I don't have the book on my but I thought mines only go off when an enemy model moves within four inches of them so it has to be on an enemy activation. If you drop it on the enemy it wouldn't go off until something either moves into the 4 inches or within the four inches at least that's how I see it.

I was talking about changing it from the mine goes off when the enemy moves to mines go off on that enemy squadron's activation. That way one ship from a squadron cant be so easily be used to detonate the minefield.

You would drop the mines on your activation as normal and they would go off if any enemy squadron was within 4" of the mine on that squadron's activation.

In other words it blows up before the enemy moves getting the squadron if they are within range.

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I was talking about changing it from the mine goes off when the enemy moves to mines go off on that enemy squadron's activation. That way one ship from a squadron cant be so easily be used to detonate the minefield.

You would drop the mines on your activation as normal and they would go off if any enemy squadron was within 4" of the mine on that squadron's activation.

In other words it blows up before the enemy moves getting the squadron if they are within range.

Right and I still don't see how that's different from I drop it on a squad and if the squad activates as soon as the first ship starts to move it goes of hitting all in the 4 inch radius, as it does currently...

" A mine will explode IMMEDIATELY when a model or wing moves WITHIN 4 inches of the center of an ENEMY mine" I caps locked the first two he last bit was how spartan wrote it.

Otherwise it would only hit the ship that's moving if you place it poorly in front of that same squad and only hit the first ship as it moves forward...but with premeasuring allowed you should not have that issue unless your movement simply wouldn't let you achieve your goal.

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Yes it's not I select this squad to activate then boom but its same effect different sequence. I activate this squad...I select this ship to move...as soon as i move it a millimeter...boom and then again as long as the rest of the squad is in the 4" blast they are all effected.

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The way mines work at the moment is they are activated when any ONE ship comes within 4" of the mine. If the mine exploded on the activation of the SQUADRON you would run a grater chance of catching multiple ships. You woul also have to plan where your squadron ends its movement. Because if they end movement in a minefield you know they are getting some the next activation.

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Oh wait I think I see you said on squad activation it goes off but that is silly if no ship is near by. And since we move one ship at a time. that one ship can trigger it and the rest of the squad is safe...what needs to change is how squads move yes we move them individually one at a time ( i mean i only got two hands...)but it should be seen as happening at the same time thus the whole squad is hit not the one ship.

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Oh wait I think I see you said on squad activation it goes off but that is silly if no ship is near by. And since we move one ship at a time. that one ship can trigger it and the rest of the squad is safe...what needs to change is how squads move yes we move them individually one at a time ( i mean i only got two hands...)but it should be seen as happening at the same time thus the whole squad is hit not the one ship.

Exactly right.

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Sorry for the misunderstanding but hey we are adults and wroked it out as such. YAY!

With how I had read it as well I was like wait...Only one problem with it affecting the activated squad when one ship moves into range Veritechc...shunting. Either battle shunting and poor...or REALLY good dice rolls that take you past your target destination... OR from a crit of 12...why should a mine effect a squad well away from it cause one ship shunted into it?

EIther way yes I see your point now and agree with it.

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If I remember correctly, in V1 the mines went off when you first activated, and when you ended your last activation move. The drive-by still worked of course, but it a was little more worthwhile to seed a minefield, because the whole squad would get it if they couldn't avoid the mines -- the mines would go off when the last ship finished it's move catching all the others that couldn't get out of the way.

However, this also meant that fast ships could "leap" over the mines, starting outside 4" and ending outside 4".

As it is now in V2, a minefield will be cleared easily as explained by others above. It isn't really worth putting a minefield down. Big ships will barge through, and little ships will only lose one vessel or a wing (at most) to clear them.

That may be partly what veritech is referring too.

Unless the mines are on top of the enemy squad, you'll only ever hit one.

It wasn't always that way.

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Ok I think it boils down to strategy here (how you use and place mines). If your a move up slug them in the face type player mines aren't going to do much for you. Remember they are more of a defensive weapon put in a location were an enemy is able to and most likely going to approach you from. They approach boom there's less of them approaching you...and in the real world it may cause confusion so some crack shots can pick off easy targets while everyone scrambles around to figure out whats happening. Now in a game the confusion won't happen really, but the effects can be the same uncertainty and slowed advance...unless you play some people I know...their/our attitude is go big or go home and would rush a minefield for funsies at times.

Last game I had a planetoid asteroid thing infront of me and a small about 6 inch gap between it and the edge of the table my opponent first thing moved aquan cruisers toward that gap to flank me....first thing I did was move my battleship and basic cruisers up to the gap and swing along side that planetoid to protect them from fire...and planted mines right at that opening behind me. I halted my cruisers and shot the enemy cruisers killing one. The Aquan frigates deployed to take the gap quickly went another way. My shunt cruisers moved up and shot at the enemy cruisers. Next turn half speed all my BB and basic cruisers behind planetoid to back up my team mate (it was a 3 on 3 ultimately) As they started the move they deployed mines. The Aquan cruisers now had a choice try to get behind me but when one moved in it would set off three mines 2 at least with how I placed the original mines all with over lapping blast radiuses.and then have to deal with a second wave of mines as they continued to try and get to my ships next turn. For one cruiser that's alot of potential pips. AND my 4 frigate squad was held back some as a rear guard.The cruisers changed course heading toward me Dindrenzi commrade's lane of fire. I then half speed out shoot some terrans up and was inposition for the aquans. Shunt cruisers battle shunted behind them...their only option was to run at my ships...run into the minefield,or run into my team mate. Granted with dice theory the minefield is the lesser evil...but chances are some damage and I'm now chasing you shooting you from behind with shunt cruisers and the only option after going through the field would be to be shot by my teammates destroyers which he could simply turn thanks to the new manueverable MAR and go through more of my mines.

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I see your point too. They don't really work like conventional naval mines, and as static placements they really aren't very effective.

When I first picked up the rules I wondered why mines didn't fit the wet-navy analogy very well. If that was what Spartan intended, I think they failed. By not being much of a reliable deterrent, just like you say.

In the V1.1 book, they describe mines as a minor weapon used to shake-off tailing frigates. In that regard, it doesn't work as well in V2 unless you get the mines right on top of them. But it's likely they won't be following that close (If you can read this bumper sticker...). Most frigates will just swerve and avoid them, or at worst, lose one ship. So, I wholeheartedly agree. Not very effective. I think veritechc is trying to address this with his suggestion, but I fear the tailing frigates will still just dodge them from a safe distance. If mines are all Drone Mines and move, then I think this would maybe go a long way to solve this if it's combined with veritechc's suggestion.

But instead. now I think of mines more like this:

(see the "orbs" deployed from the Centauri cruisers?)

Not really conventional mines, but bombs or grenades. Close proximity area effect attacks in addition to your regular weapons.

When used this way, they are pretty decent. Unpredictable, but sometimes very destructive. As I mentioned, the last game I played, one MN5 (with a good roll) caused a critical on 3 cruisers. This one attack turned the tide. There is no other weapon system that can do this.

When ever I bring out the Aquans, this happens once or twice per game due to the volume of mines dropped (lots of duds too!). I find it suits their play style -- being in close doing drive-byes and firing in all directions. Usually you have to pass over the enemy to get the mines in the right place, but with the maneuverable MAR it's a little easier to swerve, throw them 4", then swerve back on track. I've gotten much less use out of Dindrenzi mines, who's play style is less conducive.

To make them easier to use for drive-byes, I'd rather you could drop them anywhere within 4" rather than just the rear channel. Like they do in the movie clip!

Linking, well that would beef up the power of seeded mines. I'd consider it. However I don't like limiting the drive-by. I rather enjoy that! :D

But if we want minefields, we should probably look at an area-effect more like asteroid fields. I don't know a lot about it, but I'm fairly certain wet-navy minefields took a lot of preparation and time and ordinance to set up. Much more than just dropping a few mines on the fly. Not something you'd do during an engagement. But maybe something you could purchase and place like a station or something. Would make a good area-denial feature.

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