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jimithing

Madness clarification

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On 6/2/2020 at 2:27 PM, jimithing said:

For models that do not have a madness threshold like Maharal, The Dunsmouth Witch and Fisherman King, do they ever have to roll on the madness table when they are on their altered side?

Ok, from what I can gather anyone who is on the Altered side must roll on the Madness Table at the start of their activation regardless. How you flip to the Altered side depends on the unit. It is either you reach your Madness Threshold if you have a number on the card (no number means you just continue to build up Madness Tokens without flipping, but when you do it could be bad if you have lots of tokens on your card), or you flip due to a trigger; e.g. 'Loss of a Child' for The Dunsmouth Witch.  You can still accrue Madness Tokens if you are on the Altered side and fail Sanity Tests by using Mythos which will ultimately make it harder to survive the Madness Table as the tokens are a negative to your 2D6 roll.

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On 11/3/2020 at 5:02 AM, PD 01 said:

What happens if they flip back?

According to the rules on page 7 if a card is flipped you remove all madness tokens.

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On 8/10/2020 at 2:57 AM, Ivoryskull said:

Ok, from what I can gather anyone who is on the Altered side must roll on the Madness Table at the start of their activation regardless. How you flip to the Altered side depends on the unit. It is either you reach your Madness Threshold if you have a number on the card (no number means you just continue to build up Madness Tokens without flipping, but when you do it could be bad if you have lots of tokens on your card), or you flip due to a trigger; e.g. 'Loss of a Child' for The Dunsmouth Witch.  You can still accrue Madness Tokens if you are on the Altered side and fail Sanity Tests by using Mythos which will ultimately make it harder to survive the Madness Table as the tokens are a negative to your 2D6 roll.

I have read this before but respectfully do not agree.

The only entries in the 1.01 edition of the rule book I could find for this is on page 10 with a reference to page 7 (Flipping cards). The page 10 entry states:

Quote

On completion of any action that causes a Character (even if it is not the Active model) to gain a point of Madness that causes it to reach its threshold on its Ready side, it has reached its Madness Threshold (See Flipping Cards above). That Character must immediately roll 2d6 minus its current Madness value, consulting the following table, using the column that corresponds to the appropriate trait for that Character (Myth or Mortal). If the Character is a Crypt Grub then it should refer to the Crypt Grub Madness Table.

Whilst a Character is on or beyond their Madness Threshold, they must roll as above and consult the Madness Table at the start of every turn.

The emphasized portions do not mention "flipping" or on the "Altered Side" only that a Character rolls on the table when they meet or exceed their Madness threshold on their Ready Side. A character without a Madness Threshold on its Ready Side has no initiatory value to force the test against so wouldn't have to roll on the Madness Table for this.

The parenthetical reference to "See Flipping Cards Above" (found on page 7) doesn't change the base clause above for rolling on the madness table, it simply adds that this might also initiate a card to flip from its "Ready" to "Altered" side in characters that have a Madness Threshold on their Ready Side.

The page 7 entry states:

Quote

Each unique Character Card has two sides. A ‘Ready’ side which is how Characters always start the game (unless indicated otherwise). The reverse of the Ready side is the ‘Altered’ side. There are various ways a player may choose (or be forced) to flip their card from Ready to Altered during the game.

The Ready side of a Character Card indicates how many Madness points they can take before they become Altered. When they reach their Madness Threshold, the card is flipped to its Altered side. There may be other rules that can cause a Ready card to be flipped to Altered. When a card is flipped remove all Madness from the Character. If multiple Madness Points are gained that take a Character over their Threshold, any remaining points are added to the Character once it has been flipped.

The rules for flipping from the "Ready" to "Altered" sides do not initiate a roll on the Madness Table in and of themselves, it simply presents the general mechanism for switching from one side to the other for characters with a Madness Threshold on their Ready Side. Characters with a Madness Threshold on their Ready side, upon meeting or exceeding that value,  initiate not just the general mechanism for flipping from "Ready" to "Altered" but also must make a roll on the Madness Table as a result of satisfying the requirements laid out on page 10 also. They don't make the roll for flipping from Ready to Altered they make the roll because they met or exceeded the Madness Threshold on their Ready side.

Models without a Madness Threshold on their Ready side can not switch from their "Ready" to "Altered" sides utilizing the general rule as they have no value to check against and  can not roll on the Madness Table as a result of it. The specific rules printed on their character card would have precedence over the general rule for flipping and describe the mechanism for initiating one. These may or not also predicate a roll on the Madness table as a result.

The only other relevant rule book entry I could find is also on Page 10. It is under "Mythos Abilities"

Quote

Mythos Abilities:

Using these abilities does not take Action Points, but they do have an associated MYTH cost required to activate them. Each ability may only be used once per Character activation and cannot be used whilst performing an Action.

When a Character spends Mythos, they immediately make a SAN test. If it fails the Character gains 1 Madness per point of Mythos spent. If this causes the Character to reach its Madness Threshold, roll on the Madness Table when the current Action has completely resolved.

Again, the clause is predicated on reaching a characters "Madness Threshold" as a result of failing the Sanity check from using Mythos abilities and also accruing enough Madness to initiate the "roll on the Madness Table" as a result of meeting the characters Madness Threshold. Though it doesn't include a reference to page 7's general mechanism for Flipping this would also initiate flipping sides from Ready to Altered in a Character with a Madness Threshold and also clearing any madness up to the characters Madness Threshold on its Ready side because of meeting the requirements laid out on page 7.

A character without a Madness Threshold on its Ready side has no value to initiate a roll on the Madness table against  so can not take one as a result. That is not to say that characters without a Madness Threshold on their printed sides can't accrue madness from saying failing Sanity checks while using Mythos abilities or other abilities, just that the general rules for Sanity & Madness (Page 10), Mythos (Page 10), and Flipping Cards (Page 7), don't provide a mechanism to satisfy the requirements to force a roll on the Madness table from accruing them or flipping sides using some other character specific mechanism.

Baring a FAQ or Errata doc from Warcradle not listed on their webpage,  I don't see why a character without a printed value for Madness Threshold would ever have to take a roll on the Madness table as a result of flipping from their Ready side to their Altered side (or vice versa in the case of the Path of Chronozon characters that start on their Altered sides and can shift back and forth between them via character abilities or actions) or failing a Sanity check while using a Mythos ability.

At any rate that is my take on the subject and I freely admit I could be wrong; perhaps there is something I am missing. Would love to see something concrete and official from Warcradle one way or the other, though as a Path of Chronozon player I would hope it wouldn't reduce them to uselessness.

And as tone is always difficult to gauge on the internet, I am not attacking Ivoryskull, simply laying out the logic for an alternative viewpoint

 

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