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Factional differentiation so far in the Beta

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So far we have the new stats in beta.  I haven't had the patience or the spreadsheets to compare the stats, so just looking at mars and equipment.  Please forgive the slightly tongue in cheek faction names.


Britpop have guardian shields, Trident gens (sonar gens), Lionhearted crew (stoic crew), better repairs, ace pilots on carriers, and potentially ramming rules on larges if the new models are to be believed.

Pan-Asian cuisine has aggressive crew on the Chinese and Koreans, elite crew on the Japanese, reroll aerial attack dice generator, portal generator (go into reserve and turn up at random board edge), Koreans also get ace pilots.

Covenant of Evilarctica has +1 to getting gens to work, wave lurker, mimic gen, extra aa gen, making gens harder to turn on gen, skimming gen, portal gen and lasers on battleships and dread only so far.

The Imperium of Mankind has elite crew, tesla weaponry, ace pilots, Iceberg gen, Storm gen.

Southern Europeans have conscripted crew, everybody within 5 inches can link aa mar, heat lance and no special gens.

The Turks and their Scientologist backers get elite crew and +1 to gen activation, and skimming gen, but no skimming boats yet.

The Ruskies get stoic crew equivalent, capital ships are -1 to hit from aerial attacks, long range piercing rail guns,  +3aa gens and iceberg gens.

The UNION has veteran engineers, and vessels below large have sharp turn, and no unique gens.

The things I would shuffle round for a bit more uniqueness personally.  Give the Russians Conscripts, Polish get aggressive.  French and Italians get either elite crew or aggressive, Spanish and SUSA get conscripts.  Maybe the Chinese have aggressive too.  Make the shroud gen French and Turks only.  The Brits seem to have quite a few mars already and ramming is more their subs things and something I would prefer on the Russians to fit their traditional close quarters feel.  I definitely personally miss the factions different gunnery since design of boats and hardpoint placement seems less of a factor.  Can anyone point to how the stats differ the factions?

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As of right now there doesn't seem to be much variation in the stats between nations.  The difference in MARs and crew aren't significant, in my opinion.  The different generator and other outfitting cards being specific to certain nations does add flavor.  The Americans being the only faction having nothing specific to them is very odd.  These are  beta test rules so hopefully that will change with the full release of the game.  Honestly, I haven't played the beta in a while.  I played for the first few updates and then started losing interest.  I have been keeping up to date on the rules updates.  Seems to be coming along with some good changes and some that make me ask what were they thinking.

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It's admirable that they are willing to experiment, but  I am glad they seem to be slowly moving back to more of an evolution of a lot of Spartan's ideas.  I would ideally like to see some more weapon differentiation though, maybe a KoB heavy turret differing from a more short range RC one.

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@RuleBritannia by weapon differentiation, do you mean like of olde, or in one nation has an experimental munitions while others having something new?  Of old, was more like one nation was better with one weapon like torpedoes, while others had similar weapons with additional traits: like main guns that were fire starters.  If by something new, do you mean that Crown has middle ground covered with guns and able to outlast in a fuster-cluck, while Commonwealth has heavier short range guns that do exactly as intended by demolishing any contenders that get close?

This is more for my understanding.

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I would ideally like both, giving different weapon stats between factions to give different play styles, with certain factions specialising in each band with turret and torpedo fire.  I would also like different weapon mars that help give them a different feel.  Also weapon placement, which the current rules require measuring from the centre of the vessel rather than the weapon systems making the different patterns of vessels and design less important.   

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I know it to be fairly early into the beta, and with the rules and background still being rewritten, but I am curious if Warcradle would release an idea/goal as to the factional differences they plan to implement.  It is one thing for us as players to go at each other, but I cannot really get into this version if I have no idea which faction suites me.  I understand that this version may wish to set a level playing field across the nations, and that is their decision/right. 

My views are as follows:  Enlightened as trickster, we-have-cool-tech, mad-scientists.  Commonwealth as a faction causes critical hits and have small Enlightened tech.  Crown as the ultimate defensive turtle, with boosted torpedo usage.  Sultanate as a low tier Enlightened.  Celestials are looking as a swarm faction with many, many units.  Imperium are a faction that counters Crown, or any defensive faction.  I believe that leaves Latin and Union, which have standard equipment and standard units with nothing special.

In the few games, there has been almost no diversity or drive to play other than above with anything other than Enlightened, Crown, and Imperium.  Weapon placement means almost nothing as I just need to measure from center of model and try to broadside most targets.  If I need to Indirect, I stack mortar units behind a large/colossal shielded 2* heavy Crown within range of few units with their own shields.  If I need to assault, I used Imperium with storm generators and bum rushed over with atomics and zapped em all.  I will admit to unimaginative tactics.

I asked this in my feedback, but maybe the community can see something I missed, what is the difference for each faction?

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Heat lances on latin ships, rail guns on Ruskies as per my original post. Not sure what difference that makes to medium and small vessels as of yet.  I get this is the beta, and this stresses player choice of fleet, but the factional bleed reduces at this point the character of every fleet.  Its possibly more historical but less gamey.

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There we go, something I missed, Latin and Commonwealth both have Crit-on-hit weapons.  Thank you RuleBritannia.  And after a few drinks in me, looks like Celestials can be a pretty decent rocket thrower, with the Mark of Yama gen. 

I'm still scratching my head where this is going, as some of the earlier feeds and designs don't line up to the beta we have.  Example: Union battleship has listed as 3 turrets, 2 fore, 1 aft, but the latest image has 3 fore, 0 aft with  a A-fore 270, B-180 fore/port offset, C-180 fore/starboard offset scheme, which matches the battlecruiser.  I'm aware  of the nitpicky attitude, but I'm quite confused as to what's set in stone for the nations and models.  I mean in the sense that are we getting just fillers to test the rules, or should the nations and models be played like this?  If this is just filler, okay, I'm quite content to just hash it out and make these rules as precise as can be with not loopholes.  I'd rather have a game with minimum min/max players, and more guidelines for as many possible outcomes and contingencies that may come up while playing with some of our more hardcore players.  Yes, there is a difference between hardcore and min/maxers.

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Not quite, all weapons will have the same stats based on weapon name.

So a heavy turret is a heavy turret no matter which faction uses it. 

 

However there's nothing to stop them giving a faction a Heavy Ultra Turret that has different rules. 

 

I think basically their upshot is if its called X Then it behaves like X no matter what. Which likely makes it easier for learning the game. Esp for things like standard torpedoes all behaving in the same way. Plus they can just add more faction specific weapons and names and upgrades to provide variety where needed. Use standard torpedoes or your faction specific extra long range torpedoes. 

 

A faction like the techno force from the polar north might well have lasers and ion beams and not actually share any weapons with other factions at all under this rules system. 

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But it really weakens the differentation between all the factions.  Everyones turrets will act the same and everyone seems to have access to torps, guns, broadsides, rockets, mortars.  There are no short, medium or long specialists.  

I'm not saying that the current approach can't work, just that for me it leads to a shallower game that undermines the stronger factional differences that made classic Dwars more tactical and made it more fun to play different factions.

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Ah but they are only the same if they are equipped the same. They might all have access to the same basic core "Broadsides" however Bretonnia could have "Enhanced Broadsides" which are a different weapon. Now they might have better long ranged ones whilst Russians might have "Close range Broadsides" and now has a close ranged advantage.

The standardized naming and stats only keeps things the same if the ships are equipped the same; as soon as a new weapon is introduced it gets a new set of abilities and a new stat line. New weapons might be limited to specific hulls and specific factions. Eg a faction that generally has few large ships might have limited access to larger  turrets, even the generic ones.

 

I think the real telling element will be how varied the weapon choices are and what options different races have within weapon profiles. 

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That's also if the game is enhanced like so.  We have no real information that any nation is getting more comprehensive equipment other than what is in the beta.  Or at least I haven't seen any other info.  And so far in the beta, every nation has the same ship (battleship, carrier, large sub, medium sub, small sub) that only Celestials have a variety due to being a Korean, Chinese, Japanese version of each ship which as far as I've read, is only crew differential.  It is a faster game, but no unique flair of old.

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Back to the header of this post, the differences still don't seem as profound as the many differences between 16 factions of late Spartan between 8 factions.  I hope that more profound differences will be found, but currently there doesn't seem to be the differences in fighting style that the differences inbroadsidend broadside stats allowed.   The pro of its easy game to get into might be ourmtweighedby the con of each game feeling kind of similar without factions feeling as unique.  

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True, but the beta is only a beta, it might be the similarities are stronger now simply to allow the team to focus on the mechanics of the rules themselves; once they've a robust working system more variety can be built into the game; unique weapon options, modifiers, adjustments etc...

 

Also note that SG always had a fairly similar spread of ship types for most factions. In fact in their latter year SG themselves stated to cut down on some variety options. Eg early on the Prussians were the only faction with a huge walker. Come the last year or so nearly every large faction had some kind of mega-walker. Meanwhile the cores of their armies - friggates, escort carriers, carriers, battleships, dreadnoughts were all very similar. It was actually a rarity for a faction, like the Russians, to not have something like an airship carrier (though it was nearly patched over by the fact that they had a natural ally faction who provided just that very airship). 

 

I do agree the game has to have flare; its got to capture that mad science steampunk inspired world where lasers match against heavy cannon and impossible numbers of smaller ones before a huge kraken machine arises from the deep only to be shot aside by a huge whale with a laser on its head.

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What Spartan had was vessels in the same class with similar stats such as HP, DR, CR but with different numbers, positions, types, loadouts, and generators.  So a British battleship with its 4 turrets two rear and two front with a specialism band three to two plays differently to a Danish Battleship with 3 turrets, two forward facing with a band one specialism.  This can still happen in sone ways with different load outs but it seems within factions, with similar numbers of hardpoints and positioning beyond backwards and forwards mattering less you can play each faction your way with your unique fleet but without each faction feeling as unique. So there are pros, with player choice more important, fleets balanced against each other, a gun is a gun is a gun.  But the flipside of that is the risk of samey strong meta fleets between factions, and the loss of unique close range and long range specialists.  For me its more interesting to face tesla prussians one week, long range laser CoA the next etc.  As you say its the beta and there may be more unique weapon systems.  I'm just noting that personally I think that saying factions not having their own take on how a turret or a broadside functions and instead having the same one across factions is an interesting game design choice especially when you are streamlining the number of factions making it simpler so you only need 8 approaches.

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It's worth keeping in mind that the Beta ships are literally just for the Beta. They are not  the actual designs for the Third edition game. For example, the new Boridino  class Battleship is not the same as the beta test commonwealth Battleship (it has a different profile, an integrated cryo generator and many more distinctions). Those units are just for beta testing and are intentionally generic (and almost bland) . You'll see many differences in the final units when the game comes out.

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That is exactly what I needed to read Stuart.

Now if you could just condense the units lists as having that many bland units for all those factions when they're really not needed (as is why have eight factions with twenty ships each that are the same?  Just have three factions or so?)

But now we know.

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On 2/1/2019 at 3:34 PM, Warcradle Stuart said:

It's worth keeping in mind that the Beta ships are literally just for the Beta. They are not  the actual designs for the Third edition game. For example, the new Boridino  class Battleship is not the same as the beta test commonwealth Battleship (it has a different profile, an integrated cryo generator and many more distinctions). Those units are just for beta testing and are intentionally generic (and almost bland) . You'll see many differences in the final units when the game comes out.

Good news :)

 

Here is where the gold is. :)

 

My favorite ship from the old 2.5 is the terror ship. I'm looking forward to see what you guys have done with it statswise?

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