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Warcradle Classics?

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Sounds more like they don't need the competition.  I'd much prefer to see old designs without models like the Knights Templar or the EIMC interceptor or even the Seesaw Canadian armoured carrier to complete or expand my existing fleets then a new setting and new designs that don't fit at all.

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5 hours ago, RuleBritannia said:

Sounds more like they don't need the competition.  I'd much prefer to see old designs without models like the Knights Templar or the EIMC interceptor or even the Seesaw Canadian armoured carrier to complete or expand my existing fleets then a new setting and new designs that don't fit at all.

No Danny, I have literally told you the very specific reasons directly and you do your odd reinterpretation thing again. 

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On 12/28/2019 at 12:07 PM, Warcradle Richard said:

Sadly, the volumes ships sell at is tiny compared to the numbers of even obscure items GW sells.   We have tied up thousands of hours into the classics range already, it is not a money making exercise for us, simply as way of allowing classics players to close some gaps in their collections. 

Thousands of hours? Into the classic range, really? Not with the rules, not with (sadly) shipping, only with the online shop? Which have a lot of bugs e.g. smalls (frigates, destroyers) which cost much more than mediums (cruisers).

And with the volumes - we (the customers) have only little information with the new rules, the ships doesn't fit with the rules we (or maybe I) know and they are yet not ready published. A lot of the classic modells are not deliverable/shippable...  What do you think, you sell tons of miniatures from the classics range? I think most will wait with an order.

Maybe/hopefully this will change with the start of 3.0. But from my point of view this start has already been bungeld with the announcment of 2 mediums where you want 3 and 4 small where you want 5 in the new boxes...

In different german forums there are a lot of warnings over the past years about wayland and there policy and shipping. Only GW articels seems to work they say. You still confirm them.

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There is a tendency to rely on your own personal viewpoint and then apply it to a situation that doesn't fit with assumptions.  The demand for DW classics just isn't high.  The effort to keep a large number of low demand SKU's in stock and manage and maintain them is a cost to us.  We carried the cost initially as we were told there was demand.   There is some demand but just not enough to keep them in production. It;s just the reality of the demand and our decision to better use the resources for products that generate a return. We will do our best to fulfil any outstanding orders.

 

Regarding warnings about Wayland, I see this often and it irks me.   We sell more hobby product than any other independent retailer in the world and the vast majority of orders go out promptly. We ship well over 1000 orders most days and the number of issues is tiny in comparison, but we also have a dedicated customer services team that will be able to solve almost every issue.   I know we invest far more in service and  technology than any other retailer in this industry and we have never stood still and accepted that we cant improve.  My staff are constantly pushed and motivated to improve.

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I think it sounds like a bit of a catch22 in that demand for classics is low because most are listed out of stock and/or take a very long time to get cast when ordered which reduces the number of orders which reduces the amount of resources that WC is able to devote to them. 

 

Resin casting is more labour intensive than, say, plastic casting and when there's a huge library its not as profitable if the sales are really low as the prices are designed to work with volume rather than 4 of one ship then 1 of another etc..... Instead of 50 of each being cast in batch style production. 

I think it didn't help that Spartan had already started the process of killing off its own fanbase somewhat before the end and the end hit hard and many casual fans might not even be fully aware that the classics range is out there- having moved on to other games. Plus WC isn't marketing things all that heavily right now (a few events are attended through the year and there IS marketing in that - but its not the major "we are launching with a date" kind of marketing.

 

 

 

Personally I think the Classics might actually become more viable if they were perhaps done a bit like how GW does it. Release DW the new game; release an army with a big focus on them and then do a push of classic castings only for that army on order to cast up for. Whilst I dislike GW's "1 week" policy with that (because its REALLY annoying and short term with little advanced warning); it does focus customers into a specific window and builds on the marketing interest already generated by the new models. In theory the new marketing gets old fans back who do take up the option of grabbing some old classic sculpts. 

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11 hours ago, Overread said:

 

I think it didn't help that Spartan had already started the process of killing off its own fanbase somewhat before the end and the end hit hard and many casual fans might not even be fully aware that the classics range is out there- having moved on to other games. Plus WC isn't marketing things all that heavily right now (a few events are attended through the year and there IS marketing in that - but its not the major "we are launching with a date" kind of marketing.

Personally I think the Classics might actually become more viable if they were perhaps done a bit like how GW does it. Release DW the new game; release an army with a big focus on them and then do a push of classic castings only for that army on order to cast up for. Whilst I dislike GW's "1 week" policy with that (because its REALLY annoying and short term with little advanced warning); it does focus customers into a specific window and builds on the marketing interest already generated by the new models. In theory the new marketing gets old fans back who do take up the option of grabbing some old classic sculpts. 

Wayland has managed things rather poorly in my opinion after putting the effort in to market the first few waves the rest were released without fanfare and in one case with bad pricing that probably lost Wayland a load of money.  The desire to expunge the Spartan version of the game that was popular seems utterly foolish and part of what led to Spartan's decline, but that's just me.  While I appreciate that there was been more attempts to build on material, the new version has been purposefully designed to not match Spartan's vision making it harder to port fans over and now that last link has been cut.  Seems like cutting off your profitable nose to spite your less popular WWX face.  

Overread's idea is rather better, but would have required more work.  I do think spending the time to win over existing fans with stockpiled reserves of certain factions and possibly link them to the new releases to bulk out very small ranges currently announced and show that the two ranges are compatible.  But that wouldn't fit with Wayland's vision for an entirely new game that rejects both existing fans and seeks the unknown quantity of new fans that somehow are fans of steampunk battleships but haven't heard of Dystopian fans or thought it is was too sensible.

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16 hours ago, Overread said:

Resin casting is more labour intensive than, say, plastic casting and when there's a huge library its not as profitable if the sales are really low as the prices are designed to work with volume rather than 4 of one ship then 1 of another etc..... Instead of 50 of each being cast in batch style production. 

Personally I think the Classics might actually become more viable if they were perhaps done a bit like how GW does it. Release DW the new game; release an army with a big focus on them and then do a push of classic castings only for that army on order to cast up for. Whilst I dislike GW's "1 week" policy with that (because its REALLY annoying and short term with little advanced warning); it does focus customers into a specific window and builds on the marketing interest already generated by the new models. In theory the new marketing gets old fans back who do take up the option of grabbing some old classic sculpts. 

That's assumes we have lots of viable moulds and masters.  The moulds are old and most of the masters are broken.  Should a mould have 10 items on it the moulds degradation might mean only 4 are viable casts. Those 4 casts take almost as much effort to produce as a full new mould of 10 or 50, whatever number it might be.

You are assuming there is some demand out there that simply isn't there currently.

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4 hours ago, RuleBritannia said:

Wayland has managed things rather poorly in my opinion after putting the effort in to market the first few waves the rest were released without fanfare and in one case with bad pricing that probably lost Wayland a load of money.  The desire to expunge the Spartan version of the game that was popular seems utterly foolish and part of what led to Spartan's decline, but that's just me.  While I appreciate that there was been more attempts to build on material, the new version has been purposefully designed to not match Spartan's vision making it harder to port fans over and now that last link has been cut.  Seems like cutting off your profitable nose to spite your less popular WWX face.  

Overread's idea is rather better, but would have required more work.  I do think spending the time to win over existing fans with stockpiled reserves of certain factions and possibly link them to the new releases to bulk out very small ranges currently announced and show that the two ranges are compatible.  But that wouldn't fit with Wayland's vision for an entirely new game that rejects both existing fans and seeks the unknown quantity of new fans that somehow are fans of steampunk battleships but haven't heard of Dystopian fans or thought it is was too sensible.

It has not been designed to not match Spartan's vision. It's been designed to match ours and give it a better chance of commercial success. We are not in any way rejecting old fans, but your endless attempts at negativity are not representative of anything but a tiny group.  You also have no idea of WWX popularity, It is in over 300 regular ordering retailers which I am more than pleased about.

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1 hour ago, Warcradle Richard said:

It has not been designed to not match Spartan's vision. It's been designed to match ours and give it a better chance of commercial success. We are not in any way rejecting old fans, but your endless attempts at negativity are not representative of anything but a tiny group.  You also have no idea of WWX popularity, It is in over 300 regular ordering retailers which I am more than pleased about.

Why would alienating existing fans by making the setting and models people already have incompatible make something more popular and successful?  And why would fans of a weird Wild West Skirmish be a better market for steampunk boats then people that already buy Steampunk boats.  But I'm no businesstician.  People seem to have big back orders on this very thread of large amounts of Dystopian Wars models they want to buy, while second hand groups seem to do a brisk sale.  If the market is as bad as you say why would people even buy your version with less variety, no fanbase, and a very slow release?  

More importantly, does this mean that no more Spartan models will be produced or sold by your good selves?  

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Why would trying to please existing fans work? There's absolutely no proof that by the end of SG there's been enough customers to make it worth the trouble. I don't remember the details by now, but didn't we find out that SG's entire customer database consisted of few thousand entries only?

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5 minutes ago, Pok said:

Why would trying to please existing fans work? There's absolutely no proof that by the end of SG there's been enough customers to make it worth the trouble. I don't remember the details by now, but didn't we find out that SG's entire customer database consisted of few thousand entries only?

I don't think we ever did Pok, but certainly the Kickstarter killed them more by being too successful then not arriving at demands so it suggests there is and was a market for a steampunk boat game from steampunk boat fans, rather than there being a mysterious new source of people who want to play a steampunk boat game but only if it has nothing whatsoever to do with Spartan Games.

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3 hours ago, Warcradle Richard said:

That's assumes we have lots of viable moulds and masters.  The moulds are old and most of the masters are broken.  Should a mould have 10 items on it the moulds degradation might mean only 4 are viable casts. Those 4 casts take almost as much effort to produce as a full new mould of 10 or 50, whatever number it might be.

You are assuming there is some demand out there that simply isn't there currently.

All very true points indeed. I well remember comments that not only were many of the moulds old/not in good condition, but that they also arrived in a very haphazard fashion and took a fair bit of time to sort out what was actually what. 

That said for us fans on the outside much of it is just ideas being thrown around. I suspect many of these issues will steadily reduce once the new range starts to hit the high seas and the shelves. In fact those looking to build their classic collections up might actually find the secondhand market picks up as whilst some will want a full old style fleet; others might start "trading up" selling old versions of the ships for new sculpts so it could take some pressure off that aspect of the market. 

 

 

In the end we are all gamers who are just super keen to see something we love back on the shelves, especially as the whole steam punk sea warfare market is basically empty (heck lets be honest SG was the biggest brand in its scale in a very long while - traditionally a niche that tends to only survive with historical games and with micro companies where there might be just one guy casting and producing everything). So here's to 2020 the year that Dystopian Wars returns to the high seas! :)

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I don't think KS killed them per se, the KS was more of a last ditch attempt to keep solvent imo, but that's neither here nor there. I did like the old sculpts, but I do get why they don't want to just plop them back into production- the existing fans already have those ships. Existing fans will not rebuy basic cruisers again, regardless of scale, because they have armies/fleets already.  I imagine it'd be more economically viable to never release a single new or old model if the old players were the only market they planned to sell to.

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2 minutes ago, Pok said:

I don't think KS killed them per se, the KS was more of a last ditch attempt to keep solvent imo, but that's neither here nor there. I did like the old sculpts, but I do get why they don't want to just plop them back into production- the existing fans already have those ships. Existing fans will not rebuy basic cruisers again, regardless of scale, because they have armies/fleets already.  I imagine it'd be more economically viable to never release a single new or old model if the old players were the only market they planned to sell to.

I think old players would be more than willing to buy updated models, additional fleets and lost Spartan renders and to special order Spartan models.  I think it seems to me so much more silly to take an arrogant view that Spartan's vision is somehow tainted or bad and must be thrown in the bin due to the failure of Halo and the problems of management.  The complete willingness of Wayland to misspeak and not apologise, to reject existing fans who were initially interested, and to take so long to be honest in intentions is rather concerning.  Its much easier to show loyalty to a company and brand that shows extant fans with respect.  Instead the attitude here seems to be its the fans fault that Dystopian Wars failed so they don't deserve things which is ass backwards way to treat customers with a record of buying the things you want to sell.

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Danny

What on earth are you on about? What do we need to apologise for and what on earth have we done where our intentions are not clear?

 

Interactions with you are draining, you always go out of your way to seek something that hasn't been said.

We didn't have to bring classics out. It has been a huge sink of time, money and focus and we did it to allow players from before we took over to fill gaps in fleets etc.  We didn't have to do it. Yet we did. We have involved the community in extensive playtesting. 

 

You only speak for yourself, yet you always try and imply you speak for all the old players of Spartan's games.

 

We get that you don't like our vision, surely now it's time to accept that we want to take the games in a different direction than you want us to.  That doesn't mean we have ignore old players at all. It just means you yourself don't like it.

 

 

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On 12/30/2019 at 1:17 PM, Warcradle Richard said:

Regarding warnings about Wayland, I see this often and it irks me.   We sell more hobby product than any other independent retailer in the world and the vast majority of orders go out promptly. We ship well over 1000 orders most days and the number of issues is tiny in comparison, but we also have a dedicated customer services team that will be able to solve almost every issue.   I know we invest far more in service and  technology than any other retailer in this industry and we have never stood still and accepted that we cant improve.  My staff are constantly pushed and motivated to improve.

I can confirm this, your customer service is always fast and friendly with his response. :)

 

On 12/31/2019 at 8:28 PM, Pok said:

I don't think KS killed them per se, the KS was more of a last ditch attempt to keep solvent imo, but that's neither here nor there. I did like the old sculpts, but I do get why they don't want to just plop them back into production- the existing fans already have those ships. Existing fans will not rebuy basic cruisers again, regardless of scale, because they have armies/fleets already.  I imagine it'd be more economically viable to never release a single new or old model if the old players were the only market they planned to sell to.

I think KS was a very big killer, most of the ~1.000 backers got nothing. :(

I can't speak for the possible new customers, but me, as an existing customer; I'm willing to buy more fleets, especially the classical ones. I like the chinese and EotBS models and had plans to buy complete fleets from both, after the arrival of my KS-Stuff...

I'm not sure if I like to buy the new stuff,  it seems that the size (and style) doesn't fit to my existing ones. That would be a ko-criteria. So I'm still hoping that more classical models will be available within the next 2 month.

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On 12/30/2019 at 1:17 PM, Warcradle Richard said:

There is a tendency to rely on your own personal viewpoint and then apply it to a situation that doesn't fit with assumptions.  The demand for DW classics just isn't high.  The effort to keep a large number of low demand SKU's in stock and manage and maintain them is a cost to us.  We carried the cost initially as we were told there was demand.   There is some demand but just not enough to keep them in production. It;s just the reality of the demand and our decision to better use the resources for products that generate a return. We will do our best to fulfil any outstanding orders.

 

Regarding warnings about Wayland, I see this often and it irks me.   We sell more hobby product than any other independent retailer in the world and the vast majority of orders go out promptly. We ship well over 1000 orders most days and the number of issues is tiny in comparison, but we also have a dedicated customer services team that will be able to solve almost every issue.   I know we invest far more in service and  technology than any other retailer in this industry and we have never stood still and accepted that we cant improve.  My staff are constantly pushed and motivated to improve.

I understand that it is not easy to know how to take the best way for the success of a game or a company.... but to buy the rights of a good miniatures game and change it (rules and models) is a big risk.

If it is a success for you, I am happy for you. But I want the old ships and their design.

Perhaps, it would have been good to continue the Spartan´s legacy and promote the game to try new players. You have old players who want to complete their fleets and, probably, another old  fleets. And, surely, the old players would try to gain more new players and sales for you.

Perhaps you have low sells of old ships because the old players and some new players are not sure to be able to complete the fleets because there are not all the ships in the shop.

I have purchased a lot of DW ships in Wayland on October 1, 2019 and I am still waiting many of them. Also, they send me some wrong ships (I ordered 6 Russian Veliky Escorts and they sent me 6 Novgorod Frigates) and I am still waiting a response (more than one month later). I want to purchase more ships, but I am still waiting news and solutions.

I desire the best for you, and the satisfaction of old and new players. If we can to complete our fleets, even to get more (whole) fleets, sure, we were very happy. It will be good for you, it isn´t?

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On 12/31/2019 at 4:15 PM, Warcradle Richard said:

It has not been designed to not match Spartan's vision. It's been designed to match ours and give it a better chance of commercial success. We are not in any way rejecting old fans, but your endless attempts at negativity are not representative of anything but a tiny group.  You also have no idea of WWX popularity, It is in over 300 regular ordering retailers which I am more than pleased about.

I understand your point of view and it is fair. Your company, your rules.

Equally, old players can be in disagreement about your policy and explain it. Perhaps some old players (like me) are frustrated because the end of Spartan and the difficulty to get some old ships and because we were excited when you got the rights of Spartan´s DW and FA and we trust that you would continue their legacy.

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2 hours ago, Banelord said:

I can confirm this, your customer service is always fast and friendly with his response. :)

 

I think KS was a very big killer, most of the ~1.000 backers got nothing. :(

I can't speak for the possible new customers, but me, as an existing customer; I'm willing to buy more fleets, especially the classical ones. I like the chinese and EotBS models and had plans to buy complete fleets from both, after the arrival of my KS-Stuff...

I'm not sure if I like to buy the new stuff,  it seems that the size (and style) doesn't fit to my existing ones. That would be a ko-criteria. So I'm still hoping that more classical models will be available within the next 2 month.

I am not agree with the firs phrase as I explained before.

KS was a killer or they were dying and Ks bakers were not enough to resurrect them?

I hope to get my purchased and not received ships and more old ships.

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2 hours ago, Lex Orion said:

I have purchased a lot of DW ships in Wayland on October 1, 2019 and I am still waiting many of them. Also, they send me some wrong ships (I ordered 6 Russian Veliky Escorts and they sent me 6 Novgorod Frigates) and I am still waiting a response (more than one month later). I want to purchase more ships, but I am still waiting news and solutions.

I desire the best for you, and the satisfaction of old and new players. If we can to complete our fleets, even to get more (whole) fleets, sure, we were very happy. It will be good for you, it isn´t?

I totally agree with the second phrase.

And I'm also with Lex Orion and the first phrase. I'm waiting since september.. I'm willing to buy more ships and promote the game in my area (which is IMO very importent for every company - have older players to reach new customers) but I'm still waiting for news and solutions which fits me.

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Being fast on response is and friendly good and nice, but to meet (reasonable) expecations is better.


It would be nice if  we can get a timeline for the models which are marked as "Restock Expected: Available To Order" or else to get a clear "out of production" for the models where the moulds are broken and the items are taken out of the shop.

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My apologies for the time taken, but Richard asked for the full list so I spent the time to do my research and check sources and came up with 20 things that Warcradle should apologise for to existing fans to make things better and understand how they could of and can improve.

1.       Purchasing Spartan games without a plan

2.       Not explaining to fans the loss of masters and extant CAD design and hence requiring redesign

3.       Rather than explaining to fans the loss of material, blaming fans for the needs of a redesign

4.       Blaming fans for the fall of Spartan rather than the reality of the owners own problems and the nature of the Halo licence

5.       A lack of honesty on plans for the game with early statements suggesting a continuation of the extant game with a shakeup of factions which did not come to pass

6.       Reliance on fans to update Orbats but no thanks or credit shown publicly

7.       Blaming fans for negative reactions to Warcradle designs rather than accepting criticism was helpful when designs later changed based on fan feedback

8.       Statements with unrealistic timescales which suggested releases at least a year ago

9.       Failure to create a vision for Dystopian Wars and Dystopian Age

10.   The problematic absorption of Dystopian Wars into the WWX setting with its attendant racism, sexism, fantastical elements and more unrealistic models being at odds with Spartan’s vision of a gilded age based on class warfare

11.   The unwillingness to make the extant game compatible with the new ones, especially with the change of scale for the armoured game

12.   Unwillingness to thank fans for pointing out the problematic and racist tropes involved in the Chi Vampire and Celestial Empire leading to the change of both

13.   Unwillingness to promote the game

14.   Unwillingness to promote the Classics range especially as a collection of Spartan models

15.   Mishandling the sale of the Classics range for which fans were blamed

16.   Mishandling of social media leading to unnecessary antagonism

17.   Antagonism rather than conciliation as a rule

18.   Release of material for Firestorm Armada and Uncharted Seas without explaining how many years in advance of product it was

19.   Planned release of product without full unit sizes and cut down material that makes it harder for the player to collect the range

20.   Accusing critics of being mentally ill

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There is something to what he is stating. Whether Warcradle will take it as constructive criticism  is yet to be determined. As for me I am very disappointed in how Firestorm Armada  has been handled. Its been over 2 years and going on 3. Silence in this case is not golden. Hopeful 2020 will bring an end to that. The ball in your court Warcradle.

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This is becoming a bit of a... volatile situation. Both parties want Warcradle to succeed, but the same situation looks real different from the two different perspectives.
Warcradle is doing it’s best to make a game able to support itself, and I can understand why they are trying to play it as safe as possible: they are trying to avoid every misstep Spartan has made (even if it means avoiding some great steps along the way). They are also relying on the same facilities for creating the new Dystopian Wars models, and we all know how critical a launch can be for a game. If the stocks are low, it can spell doom for a system no matter how good. I think patience is still something that Warcradle can ask for, and it is for the good of both of FSA’s and DW’s future. Richard has stated (multiple times?) on facebook (more on that later), that the announcement will happen if everything is ready and not before, because they want to avoid an unsuccessful launch.
The fans on the other hand are waiting, and to be honest, this close to the release the amount of fanfare is significantly smaller than it was when the IP was acquired. Without insider insight we are free to interpret this however we like, and it is easy to expect the worst (such is human nature), and become impatient. Most of the people interested in this thread are also trying to support the company with their wallets, and even though most can understand the causes behind a delayed delivery, there were plenty “IOU”s under the Christmas tree this year, and it can make people bitter and disappointed (even though I know we shouldn’t forget that the existence of the classics range is something to be celebrated, I won’t be less disheartened by this).
Another sad fact is that these forums are not the forefront for communication, and even if facebook is reaching a wider audience, this platform is still the official platform for everything Warcradle, and neglecting it is probably not the best thing Warcradle can do.
In my personal opinion the same patience and understanding is necessary from Warcradle’s part as well, and as everyone is getting more impatient, measures harsher than necessary can create backlashes everyone wants to avoid. I know, we cannot realistically expect Warcradle Richard to make weekly reports of the development or when a new batch of KoB escorts is coming, but something that is not a PR sculpted newsletter would make most people more content.
And lastly a strictly personal opinion, that might sound controversial, but I have no intent to start a flamewar, so if it is too much, feel free to ignore this. The new DW is not going to make everyone happy, and nor we nor Warcradle should act like it will. Probably the intent was more sugarcoated than it should have been. I personally don’t blame Warcradle for this (who would want to alienate every old fan of the IP from the getgo?), but it’s happening with DW, and it will happen with FSA. Nobody owes the other party anything. We can ask, we can give our honest feedback, and in the end we can vote with our wallet. I’m not happy about this, but that won’t change anything. When (and if) the FSA beta comes, I’ll make sure to give as much feedback as humanly possible (as that system was and is closer to my heart), but for me the DW ship of old times has sailed (And with this marvellous pun, I’ll see myself out).

 

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