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11 hours ago, Skyhawk said:

On a more serious note I don't completely understand your faction pairings @Small Mek. For example, Terquai + Works Raptor? I think that the Terquai should go with the Aquans and Works Raptor with the Directorate. Basically keep the original natural Allies. My personal opinion.

It's a bit too farfetched... maybe... The idea was to round up everyone in the gym, erase every faction emblem, alliance, or association, and group them based on aesthetic qualities only (You have side panel thingies? Third row please. Cylindric hull? In the middle you go. Etc.).

Probably the reality will be something like: “Here are the factions from now on, do anything you want with the models you own”. Some interesting/iconic designs/design elements will be recognizable, but if warcradle is taking plastic kits seriously… I expect heavy departure in certain cases. Nothing to do with rules though. All the old rules are gone from the website, which also makes me optimistic.

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Keep in mind, everyone, that all Warcradle has to do is advance the time line a little and it can make almost every single current relationship meaningless.  Hawker Industries may become an outlaw corporation and escape to Directorate, while a Works Raptor infiltration and lobbying effort takes their place within the Terran Alliance, or even be hired to support Aquan operations.

Of course, I may be a little used to such shenanigans from a table top game, I cut my teeth with the Battletech universe whose convolutions sometimes make the Game of Thrones seem small.

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1 hour ago, Charistoph said:

Keep in mind, everyone, that all Warcradle has to do is advance the time line a little and it can make almost every single current relationship meaningless.  Hawker Industries may become an outlaw corporation and escape to Directorate

If Warcradle does this, I  will be soooo p!$$ed off!  Think my hatred of V1.5 was bad? This will be a whole new level hatred unseen by any before.

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6 minutes ago, Commodore Jones said:

If Warcradle does this, I  will be soooo p!$$ed off!  Think my hatred of V1.5 was bad? This will be a whole new level hatred unseen by any before.

*Polishes a hammer*

Well actually a ticket for a hammer as I don't have a hammer.......

Though honestly it wouldn't shock me if they re-write a lot of the background to Firestorm. It might sound bad, but honestly SG didn't put a huge amount down on paper in vast detail and as WC has hired their own writers it might flow better giving them more freedom to be creative and open with the setting than trying to tie them to another person creation that they don't quite have all the understanding of - esp the little details that are slipped in here and there. 

Though I can appreciate that many have fond memories and I'd hope that they stick to the core themes and alliances and structure that was established first.

 

That said I'd expect ot see the core factions appear but for there to be a lot longer before we see more minor factions appearing in great number. SG added a lot of minor factions, but often never fleshed them out. My feeling is that WC might add things slower but flesh them out all the more when they do come out. 

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8 hours ago, Overread said:

Well actually a ticket for a hammer as I don't have a hammer.......

Hang on I think we got some spare sledge hammers lying around:P.

Being that it is a different Company I do understand them wanting to put their own twist on it, but I also would like to be able to recognize it as Firestorm universe ( Fluff wise and aesthetically  at least).

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17 hours ago, Commodore Jones said:

If Warcradle does this, I  will be soooo p!$$ed off!  Think my hatred of V1.5 was bad? This will be a whole new level hatred unseen by any before.

For all sorts of reasons, we are going to make Firestorm, our Firestorm. We have already suggested that the background will be changed to some extent. We are not doing it to upset you but to give the game a sound footing and a future with a growing player base.

 

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I remember being a diehard defender of our two alliances and their existing factions but you know, I've warmed up to the idea of changing them around. We know all is not always well in the Kurak Alliance, I'd be shocked if the terran charter were any different in practice.

Keep an open mind folks, WC put out some quality fiction for WWX and as with any WC release, I've been watching attentively to see what the new owners of my favorite resin obsession can do. I think a rework of Firestorms lore might be a good thing. There were great lore concepts never fully explored in the FSA 2.0 that don't have to get lost with a new galactic order

 

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I think HOW they approach any changes to justify them will be more important than WHAT they change.  Ham-fisted changes that "just because we need to change them" will fall flat, while well structured political shenanigans can be a joy to read.

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the only thing we can do is wait and see..... with luck, if we do not like what they are doing we can work to change it to something  we all can agree on. this is the perfect place to do that  unlike Spartan Games I believe Warcradle will not leave there fan base in the wind by not lisening to what we all have to say. I do think it will be a majority thing .... that's how i view this new company 

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On 9/9/2018 at 1:00 AM, Charistoph said:

I think HOW they approach any changes to justify them will be more important than WHAT they change.  Ham-fisted changes that "just because we need to change them" will fall flat, while well structured political shenanigans can be a joy to read.

Yup - If you make the Cappellans buddies with the Federated suns no-one will be happy - (To use a battletech analogy) 

I think Battletech are actually a really good example of how to do Timeline advances.

On 9/7/2018 at 6:36 PM, Commodore Jones said:

If Warcradle does this, I  will be soooo p!$$ed off!  Think my hatred of V1.5 was bad? This will be a whole new level hatred unseen by any before.

 I'd prefer a timeline jump to a retcon.

There is so little lore out there from Spartan - you wouldn't actually have to change anything 'to give the game a sound footing'. you just need to fill in the gaping hole which is the lore. 

Just don't get rid of our favourite factions and replace (or merge) them with 'WWX in space' factions. (Covenant Of Antarctica - I'm looking at you)

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3 hours ago, Spenetrator said:

Yup - If you make the Cappellans buddies with the Federated suns no-one will be happy - (To use a battletech analogy) 

I think Battletech are actually a really good example of how to do Timeline advances.

 

It is, partially because it is one of the few game universes in which timeline advances actually mattered on a political front.  Don't forget, though, the Capellans of the St Ives Compact were buddies with the Federated Suns (till they were reabsorbed back in to the Confederation), and also the Draonians were buddies with the Federated Suns (for a very brief period, Clan invasion and what).

40K's timeline advance didn't really change their political landscape much, just changed what areas were dangerous, is all.  Sure, a Primarch woke up from his millenia-long nap, and one single character was thought to be a traitor turned to out to be loyal (but he was rather enigmatic to begin with), but in terms of faction allegiances not much has really changed over all.

Age of Sigmar did change the political landscape of two factions.  Skaven officially became members of Team Chaos, and the Dark Elves joined Team Order.  To be fair, a world was destroyed and then recreated in to 8 planes during that time, but I think that the Dark Elf changes still hits me asking for the flavor of whiskey that caused that tango foxtrot dance.

WarmaHordes political landscape hasn't changed too much, over all.  Some non-playable leaders changed, one playable Character died, and a Warcaster betrayed the faction he has 3 versions with to return to his roots.   Not much more than 40K, really.

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Age of Sigmar is an interesting example because the way that GW presents it and the way it actually is are not identical. The Dark Elves comparison is a good one, though its firstly important to understand that there are no more Dark Elves, but subfactions made up from Aelves who were once Dark Elf models. Of those that still retain an element of the old lore (Daughters of Khaine) they are within order because they are allied to Sigmar and Stormcast, but they very much do their own thing. It's like going into WW2 with the Russians as your allies. You know they are monsters, that they've their own evils and that come the end they will turn on you; but right now at the height of war you'd rather they were on your side fighting a united enemy than having them as another enemy or, at worst, joining the other side. This doesn't come across as well in GW's casual display of the factions through their website as such, but it is how they are functioning once you dig into the lore even a little. 

 

The other aspect with allies is how they work on the table top. Personally I'm more a fan of the idea that each game faction is its own unique army and that, much like how Warmachine does it, each army stands 100% alone on the battlefield. There are rules for taking allies and players can take two battlegroups if they want for whatever reason but there's no built in alliance structure that lets you take allies from other factions for regular matches. This allows factions to retain their own visual and lore identity and it makes balance easier because each army works on its own within the core of the balance. It means they can have weak and strong points and not have to worry about an allied faction "fixing" those missing parts (which tends to result in soup or allied armies dominating in the competitive and serious casual markets - whilst "pure" armies (which are what the company markets them as and what many want) suffer). 

It also means that the lore is free to chop and change. Directorate can be allied with Sorylians and then turn on them in a big campaign story pack and then ally with Reltholza. The lore change, the world and setting advance and NOTHING affects the actual balance of the tabletop game because each army is still fighting on its own. It's purely the political and lore scene which has evolved.

 

 

 

To my mind it makes for a stronger lore element and more freedom with the lore. When GW tried this with 40k allies according to lore it got silly. Tyranids wound up with no one whilst Marines have a  wealth of choices (to show the two most extreme). It makes the tabletop more messy and, honestly, its not needed. Gamers cna easily play two battle teams on one side if they want and the developer can encourage it through campaign and scenario packs without making it the default/mainstay game mode. 

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I don't see the necessity for interstellar empires to have set alliances like the cookie cut way this game was originally written. We know from pur pwn history that different groups of humans disagree and pursue different agendas. We know the sorylians fought civil wars. With the scale of the populations we're dealing with hpw does it make sense for only humans to be so politically diverse? I like the idea in the post above. Different relthozan queens should operate differently and form allegiances within their localized space. Different megacorporations in the Terran Charter should have different views and ways of dealing with other races. Just makes more sense than 'Half humans bad, half humans good, also their alien friends'

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Exactly - build the games mechanics separate from the Lore, allow the game to function on its own with independent factions and then the lore can do what it wants. Heck many players have their own stories for their races and can write their own for allied battles or for why their own forces are attacking their own etc... 

A system with fewer set alliances and structures is more free to chop, change and advance its own lore and to do what players and developers want than one that is tied to specific alliances that are built into the games balance structure between major factions. Because then you can't easily change those alliances later and you can so very easily end up with new factions appearing with no bolstering allies or one faction can wind up with way more allies than is healthy. 

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Warmachine has an interesting setup for this.  There are groups of models which carry the rules: Mercenary, Minion, and Partisan.

Models with the Mercenary rule can be taken as semi-friendly models with the Warmachine factions that are listed with the rule.  Models with the Minion rule can be taken as semi-friendly models with the Hordes factions that are listed with the rule.  Models with the Partisan rule are usually restricted to being Mercenaries/Minions for one faction, but are friendly when taken in that army.  The term "friendly" here is important as some of the buffs only work on "friendly" models.  I made up the term "semi-friendly" to indicate that they weren't "friendly", but not considered "enemy" models, either.  Admittedly this last part would only be useful for things like Shield Cruisers and Admiral abilities.

What does that mean for Firestorm?  The sub-factions can be specifically listed as who can ally with them.  This can be in the specific sub-faction's document like WarmaHordes provides, or it can be on the main faction's document much like how Natural Alliances were.  I do think that carrying on the basic Ally rules of the previous edition should be preserved, however.  The base minimum of the fleet must come from the main faction of the fleet, while the allies can only take up 25%.  The rough numbers can be massaged depending on how fleet management ends up being carried out.

If you don't want to fiddle around with a points limit for allies, it may even be worth considering taking a page from GW (and I don't say that too often).  In 6th Edition they went from just the single detachment from before to having the main detachment (which was setup as before), but you could take another detachment which was roughly a third in capacity.  Setting up an "Allied Fleet" as just 1-2 Tier 2s, and 2-3 Tier 3s (as an example) may even be a consideration.

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To be honest, as I expect the changes to the fluff to be pretty dramatic (even though I hope said departure won’t be as far from the original background).

When Warcradle stated (multiple times) that

 

On 9/8/2018 at 12:56 PM, Warcradle Richard said:

For all sorts of reasons, we are going to make Firestorm, our Firestorm.

I honestly don’t expect that version to play around only with alliances and timelines... I think among the lines of sorylians not being lizards anymore, relthoza are a hive minded species of rubberfaced humanoid/robotic aliens, and aquans being interdimensional energy beings or the Dramos-drama never happened (only in the alternative dimension from where the RSN came from, only they remember it, but boy they REMEMBER it all day :) ). Even is one such change makes its way to the fluff, a simple timeline-jump is not really plausible anymore, but... Well, if Warcradle reallly manages to flesh it out to an extend that a novel (series?) is possible to be built upon those foundations... I think might even be ok about it... (I’ll likely side with my beloved RSN commander though and start to REMEMBER like there’s no tomorrow ;) )

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21 hours ago, Small Mek said:

I think among the lines of sorylians not being lizards anymore, relthoza are a hive minded species of rubberfaced humanoid/robotic aliens, and aquans being interdimensional energy beings or the Dramos-drama never happened (only in the alternative dimension from where the RSN came from, only they remember it, but boy they REMEMBER it all day :) ).

 Warcradle would have a riot from all the Sorylian players not getting to be space Lizards anymore:P. We can get a rough Idea of Warcradle is likely to change lore wise by looking at the Dystopian Age. I think its safe to say that there won't be any race changes, it would be change for the sake of change which nether goes over well.

@Charistoph that is an interesting idea. I think a timeline jump would work well for Warcradle. It would help smooth ruffled feathers.

 

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20 hours ago, Skyhawk said:

 Warcradle would have a riot from all the Sorylian players not getting to be space Lizards anymore:P. We can get a rough Idea of Warcradle is likely to change lore wise by looking at the Dystopian Age. I think its safe to say that there won't be any race changes, it would be change for the sake of change which nether goes over well.

@Charistoph that is an interesting idea. I think a timeline jump would work well for Warcradle. It would help smooth ruffled feathers.

 

I don't think you can estimate our changes based upon Dystopian Wars/age changes. 

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2 hours ago, Warcradle Richard said:

I don't think you can estimate our changes based upon Dystopian Wars/age changes. 

Doing your best to keep the place calm there @Warcradle Richard ? :unsure:

This statement fills me with dread: Consolidation, I'd be okay with, timeline jumps, sure, I can dig.... The DWars faction changes would have been acceptable to me applied similarly in firestorm.

:( 

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I think what Richard means is that Dystopian Wars and Firestorm are very different beasts. With Dystopian Wars Warcradle made a clear move to combine two IPs into one for their release structure. That in itself brought a lot of changes to the structure and political scene of Dystopian Wars. 

 

Firestorm has no such twinning and being as the only other space games on the market are Dropzone and Starwars -  neither of which are going anywhere near administration - I doubt there would be one. That means its got far less chance of the more major changes that Dystopain Wars has experienced. Of course I expect a lot of change, but I'd wager many of the core elements will remain the same (Sorylians are Lizards - Relthoza are Spider thingies

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1 hour ago, Wolfgang Jannesen said:

So its safe to say we've been OVERREADING THE DETAILS?! HAH

(If I'm the first to make this pun at you I'm going to be disappointed)

You will be glad to know that there will be plenty of company for you in Shepherd Book's "Special Hell" along with those who talk at the cinema as well! 

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