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Dave Bednarek

Hands units "On Lookout" question......

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  A hands unit is on lookout and gets charged. They  can not fire, according to the FAQ? Or, can I spend 2 Fortune from my Boss to let them fire? Same question with a Face unit that does not have any Fortune,  can they fire from a spending of 2 Fortune from the Boss unit?

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Where does it stand, that the unit needs fortune for the give them hell reaction? I searched the rulebook and the FAQ. Did'nt find anything on that topic.

Normally on the look out triggers, when the unit is declared as a target for the charge action. He declares the target of the charge, you declare your give them hell. Then the charge is will be done. That is the order as I think it is correct.

Maybe someone knows his stuff better than me^^

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On 10/02/2018 at 6:13 PM, Cerryl said:

Where does it stand, that the unit needs fortune for the give them hell reaction? I searched the rulebook and the FAQ. Did'nt find anything on that topic.

Normally on the look out triggers, when the unit is declared as a target for the charge action. He declares the target of the charge, you declare your give them hell. Then the charge is will be done. That is the order as I think it is correct.

Maybe someone knows his stuff better than me^^

spot on - the difference between veteran instincts (which costs 2 fortune to pull off) and on the look out is small but important - on the look out is triggered by being nominated the target of an ACTION whereas Veteran Instincts is triggered by an ATTACK 

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Hello there, again new player here.

Can a unit declare a Charge with the "Give em hell" reaction?

And if they can, they will declare against a charge combat action, and how would be resolved?

Thanks in advance.

Sorry if these are simply questions, but we are in our third game, and still there are some questions on the air.

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49 minutes ago, 5Elements said:

Hello there, again new player here.

Can a unit declare a Charge with the "Give em hell" reaction?

And if they can, they will declare against a charge combat action, and how would be resolved?

 

The only actions you can take as part of the Give em Hell reaction are combat actions (Shoot or strike) and only at RoA 1.  This means you cannot charge, strike with multiple weapons etc.

Absolutely no problem, that's why we are here B)

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Thanks a lot.

Now an additional question related to this.

Give em hell! can only be activated by the model (not unit)  being the Initial Target of the attack?. Regardless if it is obtained by  "On Look Out" condition, or by Veteran Instincs?

I mean, you can only make Give em hell reaction, if you are the initial target of an Attack Action, isn't it?

As per veteran instincs rulebook text (page 14).

Thanks in advance.

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The "Give em hell" reaction text in the version 1.07 (pdf) rules states "unit" throughout (page 30).

My reading of that is that if a unit is declared as the initial target of a combat action, the unit must "give em hell" unless it makes a Mind check.

"Veteran instincts"  takes two fortune to put the unit "On Lookout" and straight into "Give em hell" out of activation.

 

The unit does either need to generate"Fortune" or be the recipient of "Largesse".

 

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Give'em Hell costs Fortune but gives you instant replay for every ACTION against your unit.
On the Look Out has to be set during an activation of the unit for 1AP,  but you can use it for free. It's a replay on COMBAT ACTION - both strike and aim against your unit.
Both can be used only when they react to something - they cannot give you free action to shoot an enemy. 

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15 hours ago, dzikki said:

Give'em Hell costs Fortune but gives you instant replay for every ACTION against your unit.
On the Look Out has to be set during an activation of the unit for 1AP,  but you can use it for free. It's a replay on COMBAT ACTION - both strike and aim against your unit.
Both can be used only when they react to something - they cannot give you free action to shoot an enemy. 

That is not my reading of the rules.

My reading is that "Give em hell" is an Action that is made either as the reaction of a unit On Lookout or Veteran Instincts to On Lookout.

Only Veteran Instincts costs fortune.

My reading is that any action cancels On Lookout, hence the requirement for a Mind Check to not do anything.  However I cannot remember it being directly stated. That might be ghosts of "Overwatch" ^__^.

 

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Ultravanillasmurf is right: going On Lookout lets you make a Give 'em Hell reaction any time you are the initial target of a combat option.  All Veteran Instincts does is retroactively put the unit on lookout so you can then take your Give 'em Hell reaction.  Once you use Give 'em Hell you lose On Lookout which is why you might want to make a mind check to try and save the condition for later.  The description for give 'em hell is on page 30 of the online rulebook.  You can use AP to go On Lookout so no fortune chips are necessary.

A couple things to note:

1) it effects units not models, so if a group of hands is On Lookout all of them could make a shot. 

2) It triggers regardless of whether or not you can fire back.  If the guy On Lookout has a 10" range and he gets sniped from 20" away, he still tries to fire back and loses On Lookout but his shot automatically fails because of range.  This is also true if someone targets you with an indirect grenade from the other side of a building; you still try and fire back at them.  This is a major reason why they have the mind check option.

3) Initial target is a keyword that refers to the model that ends up being fired at, not the model the opponent originally tries to target.  For instance, if you have a guy on lookout and they target someone within 3", you can redirect the "Initial Target" to the unit on lookout with Taking One For The Team and make a Give 'Em Hell reaction (but only if you are already On Lookout. you can't Veteran's Instinct and Take One For The Team).  Conversely, if they target someone else with a Torrent weapon and the template overlaps the model On Lookout, that model is not the Initial Target and thus can't react.

4) Being disordered makes you lose the On Lookout condition, while having the Hazard condition prevents you from making Give 'Em Hell reactions.  So basically either condition stops you from Giving 'Em Hell and also prevents you from going On Lookout during your following turn (though you can Veteran's Instincts after you lose the condition).

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I have some issues with that reaction thingy.

1. Rules state that "At any point during an enemy unit's combat action". Does that mean that I can use both firearms if enemy unit is charging from distance or I can choose to slash them with sabres before they do? What about using torrent weapon when someone tries to charge and you activate Giv'em Hell? - If the torrent weapon doesn't reach charging models at the start of combat action I mean'

2. You can't Go on Lookout while engaged in combat BUT you still can activate reaction via fortune chips? If so, then what if Iron horse cavalry is stuck in combat and another unit charges it? Boss uses his/hers fortune chips making cavalry unleash gatling fire on the charging party while still being in combat?

3. Does always Give'em Hell reaction comes before enemy attack?

4. If my weapon has Tangle and I hit charging model via Give'em Hell reaction. when does inflicted negative condition go active? I mean: failed check stuns enemy - does that mean that it automatically decreases limit by 1 and unit cannot make another action this turn (lets say it had 2 more and chose to charge)?

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My thoughts are:

1 - you choose the point you make the action, so you can choose the range: gun or pointy stick. Not sure about torrent weapons.

2 - I can see why you could use Veteran Instincts to react to an unexpected attack, but I would say only with a weapon you could use in melee.

3 - Yes.

4 - the sequence is grit check followed by a the fight check - the qualities are acquired at that point.

 

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About 4, I found that  negative conditions are applied immediatly. It seems now that Give'em hell with such weapons can be devastating for charging opponent. Dropping the Limit to 2 or even 1 is just WOW.

I would really like clarifications with first two examples though. Namely we had reaction with Legendary Octopussy torrent since it said "at any point during an attack" they assumed that it might be while warriors run toward her.
And second is just... aaagghhh... As Warrior Nation player I really really hate Iron Horses and if they can drown me in bullets and then react too... 

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1 hour ago, Warcradle Sam said:

Re: the Iron Horse question - You can't make a shoot attack while engaged so those Iron Horses couldn't use their gattling guns if they are already engaged.

I am waiting for some clarification about the other question :)

Yeah, Thank You. I read in errata that Veteran Instincts gives "On the lookout" now instead of simply "triggering  reaction". And you can't go on lookout while engaged in combat.

And about fourth one, maybe Stun weapon was't good example since it does not drop limit but let's say it became disordered.

Although dropping statistics with stun condition via reaction is pretty great too:)

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