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Is the 3.0 in the pipeline scrapped

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I’ve always felt the game system scaled very well overall, especially compared to other systems.  The only issues I found at the extreme ends were:

Small Games (< 800 points):  Battleships are way too powerful for smaller games, as there just wasn’t enough stuff in the remaining <600 points to realistically take them down.  We tried a 600 point tournament where the biggest thing you could bring was a Battlecruiser or Carrier, and the games all played out very well.  The only issue was not every faction has a “small” Tier 1, so we had to get creative to accommodate them.

Large Games:  At the small end (1205 - 1400), 2x Dreadnoughts are almost as dominating as a single Battleship in smaller games, but the fleets are big enough to bring things like Battlecruiser Squadrons with 20-24AD and multiple Cruiser Squadrons, so it’s less of an issue.  At the largest I ever played (2000), the game takes a long time because the fundamental issues that slow things down for a given Activation happen more often:

1) More models means more opportunitis for them to get to point-blank range, where physically moving the models around per the rules is difficult.

2) The target-rich environment means there are often opportunities to damage ships in multiple Squadrons per Activation, so not only are you making more attacks, but you are also more likely to have multiple damaged ships in a Squadron, leading to complex AD Pool calculations.

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I think if you've got ramming and collisions as a feature then a space game can cope with a larger number of models. If you end up with everything mashed in the middle chances are something has gone seriously wrong for both players. Don't forget games like Warhammer 40K can easily manage a 200 model battle - sure takes a bit more time moving things, but they don't get the huge movement issues and most land based games often have more terrain than space games in general. 

I think it can be done, and units on the table, I think, makes for a more striking game. I think it also increases the potential fleet composition variety and also means that players can use more of their  collection. 

I think if Warcradle use flight stands with slots for dice or damage markers (like those used for Halo or Dropfleet Commander) Then you can more easily use more ships at once whilst keeping track of things. I fully agree that if you have to keep track without such aids then more ships is a huge issue as you try to remember which damage dice go with which ship etc... 

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How many models a game can handle has a lot to due with the rules of the game and the style of the game. FSA models can move through each other, have much greater limitations on movement, take up significantly more table space than game space, and normally don't die to one attack. These are not problems for a 200 model 40K army.

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I'd argue most are not much bigger and many are smaller than what one sees in modern day warhammer. Tyranids or Imperial Guard can put down some regular big models now (monstrous creatures and tanks) which are (footplate size) sometimes two or three times the size of even Dreadnoughts. 

 

The style is what sells it; the number of models fits to the rules that the company makes for the game which ties into their overall production aims for the game. It can also vary depending how much variety they want in the game between factions - eg 40K has extremes where you've got Tyranids which might have 200+ models in a swarm VS custodes which might be 15 models. 

 

In the end we really have to wait until Warcradle gets a handle and time to decide how they want to build the game. The could go with existing rules or re-write large portions to suit the models and production and overall sales targets they want; baring in mind the desire to keep start-up costs low for new players; but jointly open up the upper limits to encourage fans to continue buying within the game itself 

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I think you missed my point.

A big 40K model takes up the space it is on the table. You measure to and from the model. You move the model it's move in any direction (flyers aside) anywhere from 0 to it's move value. 

A FSA dreadnought takes up the space of it's flight stand for game purposes, but the model can by 8" long in table space. It has to move forward into a strictly defined area based on turn radius and speed. That is big different for size based on game play.

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The only difference is the nature of moving; the rules could simplify movement to allow for larger fleets to be more viably controlled by players. It's not as if we are expecting a strict space-science game (heck the ships themselves are clearly fantasy space ships as they only have visible engines on the rear). 

It could also be that movement is split; cruisers and frigates could have much more latitude to free turn whilst larger (and fewer used) battle and dreadnoughts could have less capacity to turn on the spot or change direction; showing how much bigger, heavier and overall ponderous they are (even though in the realities of space it wouldn't be so).  Such a system would allow for more ships to be controlled as now the cruisers and frigates could at least move out of collision with each other. Meanwhile larger capital ships would have to be more carefully moved; but could also have special rules like afterburners and such - so that they might not be able to stop but could speed past another ship (ergo move directly over/under rather than into it)

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What I'd like to see but almost certainly will not be is move from land-inspired "lots of chaff, some mediums and few larges" list. Look at Jutland, the British had 28 battleships involved, with 14 cruisers/light cruisers in squadrons, and around 45 destroyers in the grand fleet. Obviously no one will field 28 BB's in a game, but it shows a force that is much more top-heavy than "balanced" fleets in Firestorm. I could be an unique selling point- focusing the game on large ships, you could have as much depth of detail as you want without bogging it down.

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Honestly I suspect we'll see the game start off modest. Whilst FA had a fanbase and still has one the events leading up to the end of Spartan Games had started to dwindle the active population somewhat. So that plus the year or more before we get FA back on sale again means that its pretty much starting from scratch release wise. So I'd expect a modest st arting position so that new players can buy into it fairly easily with a single "getting started" boxed set approach.

It might take a few years before we are back in a position where major factions could have four or so battleship variations and one or two dreadnought type (access to might be through mercenary factions not just core fleet units). And where players ahve build up collections big enough that there's serious demand for larger scale rules sets. 

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I hope they just entirely get rid of the proximity vectoring stuff. Let people remove models from their flight stems when things get in close. Just treat the base footprint and flight stem as what matters mechanically. Let people change their flight stem height to suit their preference.

If you need to then make the base size an actual model stat to keep it consistent (like Wrath of Kings does).

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1 hour ago, Xystophoroi said:

I hope they just entirely get rid of the proximity vectoring stuff. Let people remove models from their flight stems when things get in close. Just treat the base footprint and flight stem as what matters mechanically. Let people change their flight stem height to suit their preference.

If you need to then make the base size an actual model stat to keep it consistent (like Wrath of Kings does).

Thing is that means once you get ships close you end up with just flight sticks on the table - mechanically that might work, but visually that's rather boring. Indeed it makes you question why use models when it would easier to just use 2D card print-outs. Models getting in the way happens, but its part and parcel of the physical gameplay world. 

As long a the model itself represents the physical ship itself its fine; the only time it really comes into issue are when you've got things like 40K targeting based on seeing the model through terrain or cases like where some models in Privateer Press overhang their base by a significant amount (looking at you Skorn Elephant tusks). 

I don't think anything in FA really overhangs to that extent, sure most are bigger than their flight stand, but they don't overhang it to get in the way. The risks of close battling should be part of the space game. 

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On 2/12/2018 at 4:54 AM, Overread said:

Thing is that means once you get ships close you end up with just flight sticks on the table - mechanically that might work, but visually that's rather boring.

It's not usually an issue, most of the time you only have to take big models (battleships, carriers, larger cruisers) off their flight stands and usually only for one turn or possibly less once the next activation moves any of the interceding models, and then you can put stuff back on peg.

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Indeed it makes you question why use models when it would easier to just use 2D card print-outs. Models getting in the way happens, but its part and parcel of the physical gameplay world. 

Trust me, from past experience 2D printouts are far worse about overlapping than models.

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