Cloaks in 3.0

[Polaris]

@alextroy makes a good point too with basic dice

a frigate with 5 AD is no threat to a cloaked ship with 6DR if it's alone, there has always been a chance you could hit, basic dice introduces a mechanic, that could leave you completely impotent

[Hive]

I would much rather see a system where you could fish for 6s for that reason, but if Spartan is not willing to believe we can divide by 2, it's at least an idea. I would personally advocate for "Elusive against direct fire" both ways, buuuuut we'll see what happens. I know more about what I don't want at this point than what I do. I know I don't want it to be too small to matter, I know I don't want it to turn off exploding dice fully, I know I don't want mixed pools of dice where some are blue/black and some are not, and I know I want it to work exactly the same incoming and outgoing.

 

...call me picky, but I think that's a fair set of criterion.

[fracas]

3 hours ago, Polaris said:

@alextroy makes a good point too with basic dice

a frigate with 5 AD is no threat to a cloaked ship with 6DR if it's alone, there has always been a chance you could hit, basic dice introduces a mechanic, that could leave you completely impotent

The exploding dice keeps the game interesting 

[Polaris]

6 minutes ago, fracas said:

The exploding dice keeps the game interesting 

seconded

[Sniddy]

So basically we like the old cloak?

TBH I don't think halving a dice pool was ever a strain on anyone

OR

Could we live with -1 to hit and -x success? 

[Mathhammer]

Been thinking about cloaks on a along drive. @Spartan_FA_Mike

Spartan clearly wants the following to happen.

• Simplified play system or at least less math
• Introduce new concepts (black/blue) dice
• Expand the underlying rule set to allow for new ships. (was issue in V2)

On this side we have cloaks, Im fairly sure the design element for cloaks is similar to a space based TV show.

• Make it harder to hit the shop
• The ship uses all it's energy for cloaking
• The ship's fire while cloaked is weak

So the question is how to get there from here

• Halve dice pool - Spartan says no
• Split dice pool into various colors - Adds to much complexity
• Subtract from to hit - Limits in conjunction with terrain.

Suggestions left for dice?

• Has to be simple.
• Limit incoming fire and outgoing fire.
• Fishing for 6s seems to be a mechanic people want.

On the subject of blue and black dice I would suggest moving them from cloak systems to anew shield called a "Damping Shield" Maybe a new race could pick that up, if a "Damping Shield(blue) " is engaged all dice fired or incoming fire are (blue)"

 

so a simply solution to this issue could be something like

• "all successful Hit rolls made with through a cloak shall be rerolled. The second result must be accepted."

Yes this is a reapplication of torpedo spook, which I would argue Torepedo Spook should use the blue/black dice mechanic.

So simple quick and close to the original number and lets people go fish for long chains of 6's.

My 2 cents.

                              Cloak Comparsion
             Red Dice             Blue Dice            Black Dice         Reroll all hits
             Version 2.0          Version 3.0     Version 3.0 proposed Version 3.0 proposed
Attack  Final      Hits     |Final      Hits      Final      Hits     |Final      Hits     |
 Dice   Dice  80%  40%  .81 |Dice  80%  40% .667  Dice  80%  40% .50  |Dice  80%  40% .40  |
  21     10    5    9    8  | 21   11   15   14  | 21   11    9   10  | 21    5    9    8  |
  20     10    5    9    8  | 20   11   14   13  | 20   11    8   10  | 20    5    8    7  |
  19      9    4    8    7  | 19   10   14   13  | 19   10    8    9  | 19    4    8    7  |
  18      9    4    8    7  | 18    9   13   12  | 18   10    7    9  | 18    4    7    7  |
  17      8    4    7    6  | 17    8   12   11  | 17    9    7    8  | 17    4    7    6  |
  16      8    4    7    6  | 16    8   11   11  | 16    9    6    8  | 16    3    6    6  |
  15      7    3    6    6  | 15    8   11   10  | 15    8    6    7  | 15    3    6    5  |
  14      7    3    6    6  | 14    7   10    9  | 14    8    5    7  | 14    3    6    5  |
  13      6    3    5    5  | 13    6    9    9  | 13    7    5    6  | 13    3    5    5  |
  12      6    3    5    5  | 12    6    9    8  | 12    6    5    6  | 12    2    5    4  |
  11      5    2    4    4  | 11    5    8    7  | 11    6    4    5  | 11    2    4    4  |
  10      5    2    4    4  | 10    5    7    7  | 10    5    4    5  | 10    2    4    3  |
   9      4    1    3    3  |  9    4    7    6  |  9    5    3    4  |  9    1    3    3  |
   8      4    1    3    3  |  8    4    6    5  |  8    4    3    4  |  8    1    3    3  |
   7      3    1    3    2  |  7    3    5    5  |  7    4    2    3  |  7    1    3    2  |
   6      3    1    3    2  |  6    2    4    4  |  6    3    2    3  |  6    1    2    2  |
   5      2    0    2    2  |  5    2    4    3  |  5    3    2    2  |  5    0    2    1  |
   4      2    0    2    2  |  4    1    3    3  |  4    2    1    2  |  4    0    2    1  |
   3      1    0    1    1  |  3    1    2    2  |  3    2    1    1  |  3    0    1    1  |
   2      1    0    1    1  |  2    0    2    1  |  2    1    0    1  |  2    0    1    0  |
   1      1    0    1    1  |  1    0    1    1  |  1    1    0    0  |  1    0    0    0  |

 

 

 

Edited August 14, 2017 by Mathhammer
reroll all hits was off by 6%

[Xystophoroi]

As I mentioned before I am a fan of cloaks rerolling hits.

[Hive]

If Cloaks take the rerolling hits mechanic from Stealth Systems, what would you want SS to be? A cheeky move would be to make it cause incoming fire to be Blue from outside SS range.

[blut_und_glas]

And another suggestion - as before, I am mainly looking at the other (new) mechanics for inspiration (like die types, CO, linked fire values) -:

How about firing at a cloaked target/firing while cloaked causing a point of Disorder?

(Background rationale if needed: Extreme strain on systems and crews.)

This would not change the hit probabilities but make it inherently risky to engage cloaked targets/engage targets while cloaked. Bonus points if you give Relthoza nanite repair systems a way to remove Disorder (perhaps only when cloaks are inactive?).

[Mathhammer]

hmm this chart may be useful for discussion,

red/blue/black dice with no mod, rerolling ones , rerolling hits

map against to hit numbers:

So the old cloak was around 40%

Shows a probability map (ordered off of +4 to hit)

 

Anyone got any other to hit modifier i should toss in the chart?

 

                     +2   +3   +4   +5   +6 
Red - Reroll Ones   140% 117%  93%  70%  47%
Red - None          120% 100%  80%  60%  40%
Blue - Reroll Ones  117%  97%  78%  58%  39%
Blue - None         100%  83%  67%  50%  33%
Black - Reroll Ones  97%  78%  58%  39%  19%
Black - None         83%  67%  50%  33%  17%
Red - Reroll Hits   100%  67%  40%  20%   7%
Blue - Reroll Hits   83%  56%  33%  17%   6%
Black - Reroll Hits  69%  44%  25%  11%   3%

 

[Edwin]

Playing relthoza is what I do because of the tactics with turning cloack on and off at certain points in game. if you weaken cloacks or if they can turned off and on just remove the whole core fleet.

Be very carefull what you do with cloacks just wanting less half dice is the worst possible reason to eliminate a whole core faction.

very bad idea!!

[CoreHunter]

What if cloaked forced all attacks to use the linked values?

As per Spartans example of 3 terrain cruisers having 7+4+4 =15; would to to 4+4+4 =12. Also mind this is at range band 2 their optimal output. You should still see decent survivability at ranges 3 and 4.

[Paradomutante]

-1 hit or rerolls hits will do the magic.

[fracas]

19 hours ago, Mathhammer said:

 

 

                     +2   +3   +4   +5   +6 
Red - Reroll Ones   140% 117%  93%  70%  47%
Red - None          120% 100%  80%  60%  40%
Blue - Reroll Ones  117%  97%  78%  58%  39%
Blue - None         100%  83%  67%  50%  33%
Black - Reroll Ones  97%  78%  58%  39%  19%
Black - None         83%  67%  50%  33%  17%
Red - Reroll Hits   100%  67%  40%  20%   7%
Blue - Reroll Hits   83%  56%  33%  17%   6%
Black - Reroll Hits  69%  44%  25%  11%   3%

 

But the odds don't sufficiently portray the game experience 

with exploding dice there is always a chance to punch above your weight, so you take tactical chances as well as against all odds attacks

[Mathhammer]

1 minute ago, fracas said:

But the odds don't sufficiently portray the game experience 

with exploding dice there is always a chance to punch above your weight, so you take tactical chances as well as against all odds attacks

I agree with you 100%, I just wanted to show the probability field so people could argue about things and have the numbers to support or undermine their arguments.

[S..Mike]

Okay, so this is my last post before GenCon, it really is time for radio silence.  

Thanks for sticking through this guys, your ideas and feedback have been a great help here*.  We've got several things to work out with cloaks as well as other mechanics.  Just wanted to let you know that you've been heard, and to tune back in after GenCon.  I hope to have news to share then.  Or at least more time to adequately track down the answers.

Mike

*Actually, the feedback from everyone, on all of the topics, has been very helpful.  I'm not wanting to spam the site with the same message...but know you've been heard, and change is coming.  But first...I've got a Con to go to.  Hope to see many of you there!