Jump to content
Polaris

Cloaks in 3.0

Cloaks in 3.0  

42 members have voted

You do not have permission to vote in this poll, or see the poll results. Please sign in or register to vote in this poll.

Recommended Posts

@Spartan_FA_Mike I would be for basic dice, (as suggested by @Hive) ingoing and outgoing, that would require minimal restat, while providing the same benefit mathematically, and this would be across the board

so a relthoza dreadnought has roughly half the successes going out, and coming in, no major restat or other MARS to make up the difference

a directorate carrier, has roughly half the dice going out, and half coming in, no major restat or extra Mars needed

the math ends up easier, without invalidating the defense (which I think is the core of the issue most people have with 3.0 cloaks)

as for indirect weapons, allow them to hit full power exploding dice, both ways

this would grant the same results as in 2.0, with a simpler mechanic, and everyone wins :) 

(well except those who lose...) ;) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Spartan_FA_Mike I have no objections to basic dice as it has a net effect similar to halving the dice pool and prevents spiking.

It will need playtesting of course, it means that if you've only got 5 dice you KNOW you can't hurt the cloaked battleship etc. and it also means the to hit bonus/penalties are worth more.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you are still looking at systems for results, Heavy Dice with -1 to Hit (i.e. 1-4: miss, 5: 1 Hit, 6: 2 Hits) gives the same 0.5 Hits per Die with higher variability.

i should also point out that a -1 to hit   on exploding dice yields a lower average Hits (0.6 Hits per Die) than Heavy Dice (0.67 Hits per Die). 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Basic dice is a about 35% reduction in fire power instead of 50% so around 70% as effective as the old cloak was at stooping in and out going fire power 

...It makes turning it off or on a decision and is easy to do....but it ANOTHER mechanic 

:-/ 

This whole talk of reducing 'cognitive load' is being to sound like a load of.....well 'talk' 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A dice is worth roughly 0.8 maths normally (it's a tiny shade under I think, in 36 dice you get 28 successes and 1 more re-roll that nets on average 0.667 - you can add more and more 'what if I roll 6's' but it never quite really amounts to real odds of beating 0.8 - so for all but die hard statisticians I think 0.8 is 'close enough')


The current proposed rule takes it to 0.6666 recurring (in 6 dice you get 4 successes on average dead)

making it flat dice is worth exactly 0.5 (3 successes in 6 dice)

It's probably the closest we'd come to the old V2 set up of about 0.4 and it makes cloaks meaningful without adding too many rules - it's solid and consistent - but it IS another 'type' of dice/attack 

Personally I think it's the best, simplest, compromise 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, Sniddy said:

A dice is worth roughly 0.8 maths normally (it's a tiny shade under I think, in 36 dice you get 28 successes and 1 more re-roll that nets on average 0.667 - you can add more and more 'what if I roll 6's' but it never quite really amounts to real odds of beating 0.8 - so for all but die hard statisticians I think 0.8 is 'close enough')


The current proposed rule takes it to 0.6666 recurring (in 6 dice you get 4 successes on average dead)

making it flat dice is worth exactly 0.5 (3 successes in 6 dice)

It's probably the closest we'd come to the old V2 set up of about 0.4 and it makes cloaks meaningful without adding too many rules - it's solid and consistent - but it IS another 'type' of dice/attack 

Personally I think it's the best, simplest, compromise 

 

While the numbers get closer the cap on the hits makes it so that certain ships will feel immune to other ships.

No idea the best answer.

 

                               Cloak compare
             Red Dice             Blue Dice            Black Dice
             Version 2.0          Version 3.0     Version 3.0 proposed
Attack  Final      Hits      Final      Hits      Final      Hits      
 Dice   Dice  80%  40%  .81  Dice  80%  40% .667  Dice  80%  40% .50   
  21     10    5    9    8  | 21   11   15   14  | 21   11    9   10  |
  20     10    5    9    8  | 20   11   14   13  | 20   11    8   10  |
  19      9    4    8    7  | 19   10   14   13  | 19   10    8    9  |
  18      9    4    8    7  | 18    9   13   12  | 18   10    7    9  |
  17      8    4    7    6  | 17    8   12   11  | 17    9    7    8  |
  16      8    4    7    6  | 16    8   11   11  | 16    9    6    8  |
  15      7    3    6    6  | 15    8   11   10  | 15    8    6    7  |
  14      7    3    6    6  | 14    7   10    9  | 14    8    5    7  |
  13      6    3    5    5  | 13    6    9    9  | 13    7    5    6  |
  12      6    3    5    5  | 12    6    9    8  | 12    6    5    6  |
  11      5    2    4    4  | 11    5    8    7  | 11    6    4    5  |
  10      5    2    4    4  | 10    5    7    7  | 10    5    4    5  |
   9      4    1    3    3  |  9    4    7    6  |  9    5    3    4  |
   8      4    1    3    3  |  8    4    6    5  |  8    4    3    4  |
   7      3    1    3    2  |  7    3    5    5  |  7    4    2    3  |
   6      3    1    3    2  |  6    2    4    4  |  6    3    2    3  |
   5      2    0    2    2  |  5    2    4    3  |  5    3    2    2  |
   4      2    0    2    2  |  4    1    3    3  |  4    2    1    2  |
   3      1    0    1    1  |  3    1    2    2  |  3    2    1    1  |
   2      1    0    1    1  |  2    0    2    1  |  2    1    0    1  |
   1      1    0    1    1  |  1    0    1    1  |  1    1    0    0  |

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Polaris said:

and statistics aside (there important I know) but that magic string of 6s shows up WAY to often :) 

2 dice shot into nothing - nearly double crit a BS, it can happen

But thank you maths hammer for the breakdown, and while maybe the ship is harder to hurt with the cloak cutting both ways you have it much harder to hit things too 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Expanding on @Hive's idea...

Two types of cloaks - Black Cloak and Blue Cloak, each referring to the type of dice it changes incoming/outgoing fire into. Black cloaks on Large ships and probably battlecruisers/gunships/heavy cruisers, as well as the RSN Spook (to tie into its fluff). Blue cloaks on other Relthoza ships and other races that use cloaks. 

New MAR (Standard on Relthoza Battleships, Carriers and Dreads, hardpoint option on Relthoza Battlecruisers, Heavy Cruisers and Gunships) - Stealth Field - if a ship with a Blue Cloak is within x" of a friendly vessel with this MAR, it counts as having a Black Cloak. If a ship with no cloak is within X" of a friendly ship with this MAR, it may count as having a Blue Cloak, but whilst doing so, it's shield value is 0. Neither of these effects may not be used if the ship with the MAR has a shields offline persistent effect  

This makes putting heavy cruisers in Cruiser squadrons and battle cruiser/frigate squadrons a little more viable (since it'll upgrade the  blue cloaks, straight away), it'll make the Relthoza an interesting ally for some, and it will allow the creation of "drone" ships for the Relthoza (Basically an engine, a gun array at the front, no cloak and no crew, but can be taken as an accompaniment for a Large/Massive ship, as well as squads on their own). 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Seems to fit in with the Heavy/Light SRS theme they have going for this edition.  Would also be fine to name it that way, with Heavy Cloaking Field going to normal dice and Light Cloaking Field going to blue dice.  More to balance, but an interesting design space to play in, I like it.  Might be interesting to, instead of a "drone" ship, give them an R&D cruiser analogous to the Terran Aegis with "Cloak Projector" or whatever you want to call it.  Might make balancing the effect somewhat easier as it would be a familiar concept.

The only issue I could see with the approach is that it's going to reinforce the "ball-up-and-go" movement from v2 that might have been getting more flexible.  In the current version, you ball up to share SRS immunity to torpedos.  Now you need to ball up to get your Cloaks straight.  Still, if Relthoza remain dependent on Systems Network (yes/no?  no mention I've seen) then they'll be encouraged to group up anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This Heavy cloak, light cloak actually does sound really cool. And using basic dice looks like a good candidate for the new cloak as well. It is easier to figure out than V2 yet it is more effective than the heavy dice version. I'd say these are the best suggestions made thus far. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only problem with this is the issue of separate dice mechanics, which can be a problem teaching new players.

Explaining exploding dice, no problem. Explaining how/why this one things dice rolls 6's count as two hits and don't explode, while this other special thing doesn't even count as two and doesn't explode, and newb confusion all-around.

When/where to de-cloak already gives the Relthoza a high enough learning curve without making it worse with variable dice mechanics.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What I am concerned with is the loss of variability.

The core exploding dice mechanics makes it so that there is always the outside chance of freak rolls. In all likelihood, your lone, damaged frigate will not kill the enemy dreadnought bearing down on it - and then you roll that string of sixes...

Love it or hate it, that is still central to the way Firestorm Armada (and other Spartan games) plays and feels.

With the new cloak (both blue and black versions) this has been taken completely out of the picture. The off-chance isn't there any longer. On a very fundamental level, cloaked ships play a different game from everybody else with that rule.

It also has the follow-on effect that Relthoza move from being the most inherently risky faction to actually being the most predictable (the changes to shunting just reinforce this).

You can certainly do that, I just think it is the thing one needs to be most aware about, not merely how much better/worse cloak got in terms of averages and percentages.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, blut_und_glas said:

What I am concerned with is the loss of variability.

The core exploding dice mechanics makes it so that there is always the outside chance of freak rolls. In all likelihood, your lone, damaged frigate will not kill the enemy dreadnought bearing down on it - and then you roll that string of sixes...

Love it or hate it, that is still central to the way Firestorm Armada (and other Spartan games) plays and feels.

With the new cloak (both blue and black versions) this has been taken completely out of the picture. The off-chance isn't there any longer. On a very fundamental level, cloaked ships play a different game from everybody else with that rule.

It also has the follow-on effect that Relthoza move from being the most inherently risky faction to actually being the most predictable (the changes to shunting just reinforce this).

You can certainly do that, I just think it is the thing one needs to be most aware about, not merely how much better/worse cloak got in terms of averages and percentages.

I think this is the core reason why cloaked ships need whatever effect to apply to their shooting, too. For the Relth, in terms of design space, a stronger cloak lets you make their ships more fragile, lending to the risk. In 2.0, aside from a pair of outliers, Relth were tied with Terrans for slowest ships and flimsiest hulls. The difference was that Relth had defences intended to help them approach hard-foreward to get into a scrap, where Terrans had Torpedo equipped ships and Shields to mitigate the need to do so.

 

As long as both sides either can or cannot fish for sixes, any hard modifier supports this gameplay style, lets you stat them as glass cannons, lets you play mindgames with cloaked carriers, and there are serious benefits to that design space, and without it Relth in particular could easily find themselves being an honestly unnecessary middle-ground fleet. Directorate might lose the interest their cloaked options generated, RSN would take a hit in interest to one of its cooler choices...

 

As for why Black and Blue, honestly because Spartan has made the choice that Black and Blue dice should be a part of the game. I could easily lobby for it to be Elusive both ways, and have cloaked ships be fishing for 6s, same as their opponents do against them. But it has to be impactful enough to justify a below-average hull under the cloak, and like I said Black and Blue still need justification as a mechanic, particularly if Kinetic gets a rework.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Polaris said:

cut AD in half? ;)

 

 

Nooo. :P

...which brings us back to the brainstorming of third options. Going back over my own quickfire ideas, I think the CO one (need to spend a CO to fire into/out of cloak) or having the lead ship reduced to its linked value AD are my favourites. But that's just me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

what if cloak had a X value and turned X 6s into black dice?

could even limit the network mar to a very few ships and it could give cloaked squads with at least one ship in command distance a non stacking +X to their cloak value; ships without cloak gain cloak X.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.