Jump to content
Hive

Relthoza/Ba'Kash Re-Stat Discussion

Recommended Posts

So the point of this thread, as highlighted in the other ones, would be to discuss ship classes that see almost no use.  I have a short list of my own, so I'm gonna preemptively lay it out.

 

Stinger/Wolf Escorts- With Widows also at 2 AP and 1 PD, there was nothing, aside from the Dread, that could take them that didn't have better options all around. They were kind of a wash- the best use for them was on an allied Ba'Kash Battle Carrier, to boost its AP while preserving access to Drone Repairs...

 

Cotesia Assault Cruiser- Not terrible per se, in that they could keep cloaks up and still have an impact, but the whole "Assault Shuttles only" looks to have been concieved of as somehow a positive... With tons of other Assault Shuttle access available to a Relth player, cruiser-level fragility, and an AP pool that didn't live up to the Assault Cruiser classification, there wasn't really a place for them in most lists.

 

Light Frigates- Honestly they would be great if Torpedoes weren't so easy to shut down. As it is, for less points Widows or Nidus are the way to go.

 

Ba'Kash Destroyers- There's a really clear intent behind these; ambush, capture a ship, and then fight it out until they go down. Ambushing into full stop didn't do these guys any favors, plus Scatter was already on every other ship. It's just like the Cotesia- it's not doing anything you can't already do, and what it does do it does worse and for more points.

 

I mean, these are my opinions. I'm sure plenty of people will disagree. I'm also certain that someone will add regular cruisers to this list (fight me, they're my favorite ship in the game. Great glass cannons if you support them properly)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Relthoza, as a whole, are something that I have a lot of concern for.  Their whole faction was based around cloak/stealth usage, and cloaks have been much downgraded and there's been no mention of stealth.  Even if stealth remains as-is, there still needs to be a thorough reevaluation of the ships based on the new cloak rule.  Relthoza can't keep extremely low base stats and short ranges without traditional cloaks.

For v2 ships, I would have to disagree with Hive on the cruisers.  They aren't terrible, no, but I've gotten far too many hits/crits even through cloaks with them due to their extremely low defences.  16AD is nice, but at 16" it's really short-ranged.  It isn't any better than many other races can project at much longer ranges.

Destroyers always had an odd place in the list for me too, being more like a gunship than a more traditional Destroyer.  Is Ambush still a thing?  Either way, these probably need a new role in life.  With the cloak changes they won't survive at all out by themselves.

Other than that, I never had much of an issue with my Relthoza.  I think in the new system that their range bands are going to be much more of a hindrance though, and though the change to Shunt Matrix will make them an interesting outflanking/reserve force, you'll be down significant activations if you want to take advantage of that.  When there's also the new "do a 180" order, getting in behind people has much less payoff as well.  Instead of taking a while to get back to you, they can immediately bring their bows over and blast away.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's a big thing, isn't it? Relth are going to be the Core 6 faction that changes the most, all things considered. We would need to know what other defenses they get, if there's a blanket upgrade that will apply, how new-Ambush works, ect. It's... A lot of change, you know? Is there any insight that you could provide on this, @Spartan_FA_Mike?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I remember seeing new new cloak rules mentioned, but I can't remember where.  Could someone clarify those rules here, or atleast point to where they are?  Clarification on stealth would be nice too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, fracas said:

Retholza also need another battleship and another type of cruiser, what would have gone into a two player starter 

Yes both them and sorylians need another 2 player Starter. I think Neil said it was in the works . 

Re Relthoza im VERY concerned about the new significantly nerfed cloaks . I hope the new updated ship stats for Relthoza will reflect this significant loss of survivability unless their regeneration will get better and be available on more ships? I dont really see how they ll stay viable with the current state of ships unless they get weapon shielding maybe? At least Sorylians get real shields.

If we are keeping cloaks as is . ID like for Relthoza cruisers to get regeneration and higher CR and heavy cruisers and up to get weapon shielding or equivalent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No choice but to pump up DR and CR to compensate for cloak going to utter garbage defence. It is even worse than the pf version that is always on. I can see them turning into dindrenzi with slightly different weapon effects.

Unless they go full PF and make them rail gun heavy too. So you may see the majority on zeni rendering most alliance defenses irrelevant.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My guess is they'll get a lot of the Regeneration previewed in the Pathogen thread rather than DR/CR.  Which is probably fine.  That said, not really sure why Cloak needed such a nerf-it was a good mechanic as is, and such a radical change forces a lot of otherwise unnecessary stat changes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, they said that PF and FA would be getting closer in "feel."  I, and I'm pretty sure everyone else, assumed that meant PF stats and rules would be brought in line with FA.  Instead it seems the other way around.  I'm guessing now that Relthoza will be a mid/short range fleet with CR/DR rivaling Dindrezi, with the lack of range balancing it out.  Not what I would have chosen, but I can work with that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

my other issue with cloaks is the other races that use them, but won't have any enhanced regen or stealth, take the directorate carrier, it really has no firepower (unless you go cyber with a couple tormentors) and it can't even carry that many wings (if you upgrade it, you get 8...) it's biggest strength was survivability, I used it to plow into a fleet, cyber and bombers away, using the countermeasures with decimators to disrupt squadrens

now command checks, decimators and cloaks are all different

it's survivability is gone, so will countermeasures, and it's really not much of a "carrier"

why will I use it  :/

I think the cloak rule change may be a mistake

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In general v3 is going the way of planet fall. So instead of improving the game it is simply being dumbed down and streamlined into mushy goo. These "minor" changes are going to call for entire fleets to be reworked into entirely new entities and will possibly leave a great deal of players alienated.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Xerkics said:

I would like to see some sample ship profiles for things with cloak for example because im increasingly losing confidence in v3.

I would like to show them to you.   I promise, its not vaporware...it's just not ready for unveiling as yet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Given that ships aren't done yet and need balanced, is it at least possible to show us the DR/CR adjustments on a ship (any ship) that had cloaks in v2 so that we can get some sense of how you guys see the new cloaks working?  You would only need to talk about extra MARs if they play into that discussion (ex., this ship didn't get as much of a boost because it also got Regeneration).  I think it would calm some concerns if we at least had an idea of where the beta team is at on this, with the knowledge that it's subject to change.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mod note (again):  Sorry about bouncing the threads around.   @Paladin21's comment does better belong here, apologies.

--------------------

So in general, the larger capital ships (Apex, Weaver, Raptor, etc) are being compensated with Regeneration(X) (which restores 1 HP and removes an effect marker), this also shows up in some of the medium capital ships, at a reduced X value.  Self Repair(X) (restore 1 HP) also shows up more often in medium capitals (Cotesia, Venom, Assassin, etc.)

For DR/CR/HP, Raptor for example went from 5-9-6 to 6-10-6.  The Apex however was 7-11-11 but is now 6-11-9.  Apex also picked up the Stealth Systems MAR to compensate for this.

Note that some of the DR/CR/HP changes are due to having a baseline design that the model is being realigned to, some may be due to specific MARs, others for general balance with the rest of the ship and racial character.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Spartan_FA_Mike said:

Mod note (again):  Sorry about bouncing the threads around.   @Paladin21's comment does better belong here, apologies.

--------------------

So in general, the larger capital ships (Apex, Weaver, Raptor, etc) are being compensated with Regeneration(X) (which restores 1 HP and removes an effect marker), this also shows up in some of the medium capital ships, at a reduced X value.  Self Repair(X) (restore 1 HP) also shows up more often in medium capitals (Cotesia, Venom, Assassin, etc.)

For DR/CR/HP, Raptor for example went from 5-9-6 to 6-10-6.  The Apex however was 7-11-11 but is now 6-11-9.  Apex also picked up the Stealth Systems MAR to compensate for this.

Note that some of the DR/CR/HP changes are due to having a baseline design that the model is being realigned to, some may be due to specific MARs, others for general balance with the rest of the ship and racial character.

Um are you sure you arent confusing Apex with something else? It always had the option of buying Stealth Systems. Also Why is The Dreadnought only marginally tougher than a Battlecruiser? For ships without shields having high DR is kinda important regeneration doesnt help if you get wrecked in a single round . Also IF DR goes down HP and CR should go up. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Apex, for all intents and purposes, already had Stealth Systems.  Unless it can buy an extra CR for 15 points, it's just a downgrade.  I'm getting the picture that CR/DR were left largely unchanged, and instead MARs were layered on to "fix" things.  At least the rules seem to function before you shoot now so that you have a chance to get successes back, but in general I'd rather just not take damage.  Cloaks went from a 50% damage reduction against guns to a ~15% damage reduction, and the offset is you may (or may not) be able to regen some of the extra damage?  I already thought Relthoza were too squishy for their extremely short ranges, and now this...

We'll see how things work out with full stat blocks, but the example stats are really underwhelming.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Paladin21 said:

The Apex, for all intents and purposes, already had Stealth Systems.  Unless it can buy an extra CR for 15 points, it's just a downgrade.  I'm getting the picture that CR/DR were left largely unchanged, and instead MARs were layered on to "fix" things.  At least the rules seem to function before you shoot now so that you have a chance to get successes back, but in general I'd rather just not take damage.  Cloaks went from a 50% damage reduction against guns to a ~15% damage reduction, and the offset is you may (or may not) be able to regen some of the extra damage?  I already thought Relthoza were too squishy for their extremely short ranges, and now this...

We'll see how things work out with full stat blocks, but the example stats are really underwhelming.

Maybe it makes sense in the overall change of stats like Aquan Dreadnought is now DR 5 now seeing as how it has fat shields and aquan ships cam buy mar to be  hard to hit. @Spartan Mike Can you please post an example of a dreadnought with shields for comparison? Like the Aquan one?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Spartan_FA_Mike said:

The Stealth Systems MAR is standard now, not a hardpoint option.

I understand that.  My point is that we've traded +1DR for not having to pay for a 15 point hardpoint.  Unless I can buy +1DR for a 15-point hardpoint, I consider that a straight downgrade.  Maybe there's other (better) hardpoint selections now, but in v2 I never felt like I needed a fourth choice, so getting a hardpoint moved into the base stats is just a slight point reduction.  I'd rather pay the points and keep the stat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Spartan_FA_Mike said:

The Stealth Systems MAR is standard now, not a hardpoint option.

You said it like it got it to compensate for an enormous nerf to its survivability (losing DR is huge) but it already had stealth systems to begin with as it was pretty much a required purchase. So it didnt really gain anything there also 9 hp on what is essentially a super capital ship seems questionable. Unless Regen is really reliable i dont see how its justified because self repair isnt easy to pull of to begin with. Otherwise its like a double whammy not only did apex lose dmg reduction via cloaks but both its Dr and HP gone down.Really need to see some more example to put it in perspective. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.