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Directorate / Works Raptor Re-Stat Discussion

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7 minutes ago, Paladin21 said:

Only options the persecution gets are standard escorts, so that's not a thing.  Even if it were, you'd be pushing on towards 400 points, which means you're playing exceptionally large games or you don't really care about having your only tier 1 (and Admiral) off the board for an unknown amount of time.

Ah. Then you just do what you did before the Impact came out.

Stick it with 3 Retarius escorts for the 3/4 gun racks.

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Well, that works, but now not only do you have the drawbacks already mentioned, but you've also cut yourself off from the Directorate TACs.  They aren't game-breaking (like the Aquans version), but they can be pretty useful if you plan accordingly (Firewall Breach in particular can be good fun in a boarding fleet).  Considering the drawbacks of this, I don't think it's a particularly good option anyway.  It isn't horrible, admittedly, but it's both an exceptionally specific usage and committing yourself to accepting limitations on your force usage to do it.  Seems like a poor tradeoff to try to maximize what should be the biggest, baddest model in the fleet.

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again it can be done, but  could shunt in 2 full squads of gunships for the same cost or less with 4, 12 AD shots instead of 3 14, with the added bonus of 4, 7 AD mines (if you upgrade the mines)

I agree that this is how the persecution is best used, but I stand by my statements that you can always find a ship that does it's job better, for less points

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Works Raptor: Oppressor - Almost never used.

Explanation: Completely redundant as a stripped down version of the Attrition, even when taken as a squad of 2, they are not worth their points. I have fielded them twice and each time my opponent knew I was facing them with a handicap without me saying a word.

A change that might justify the Oppressor's inclusion in a fleet is to have it focus on the forward facing beams with longer range taking a page from the Xelocians.

 

This next part is purely my opinion:

Nullifier - I don't believe this ship completely follows the design theme or fluff of the faction. All other Works Raptor ships have stronger forward facing beams with good side beams and any arc torpedoes (barring the Tyranny). The in-universe description of Works Raptor pegs them as focusing on lethality. In over 90% of the games I've played, 50% of the Nullifer squads weapons are facing the void. If you took away Stealth and the flavors of torpedoes, it could pass a a destroyer for a different faction.

Interdictor - I'm not sure if this will be relevant with the changes to boarding. If I'm playing a faction know for/as described as being good at it, I shouldn't be statistically inferior to the closest equivalent ship, if their faction is described in their background as being poor to mediocre at it. I'm looking at you [Isonade] 

 

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I actually loved the oppressor, bring a pair in with a token of bombers, they arrive in there sweet spot, usually undamaged, and you throw an 18AD bombing run with 15AD beams, it was brutal

it does seem a bit odd, that the nullifier has port/starboard torpedoes, when every other ship has any arc, it "technically" allows for 2 shots... in practice... not really. especially when your torps drop at close range, you don't really dive in for double broadsides. I have, and use them, but they end up being deployed and parked at full stop facing sideways (hidden killer) the advantage being when I start the engines, I can use them to kite, but sturdier beams/torps would go a long way to making this ship "uncompromisingly deadly" as the works raptor are said to be

interdictor may have had it's boarding nerfed, but with PD mountain gone, it's torps just got a lot better, I think it's okay, though works raptor could use a slight boost in general (in my opinion)

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On 4.8.2017 at 9:11 PM, Kurgan said:

From the Directorate arsenal all ships are great, well except for the Taskforce Ascendency and Champion, never got to like them. 

Have you ever tested an Ascendency as accompaniement of/to (?) a Judgement?

I second everything else you said.

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Escorts actually probably need looking at.

If they're solely for PD then they need to be cheaper. Otherwise give them a gun of some sort so they can assist their parent in ways that SRS can't.

The main issue with Escorts right now is that they are often the only vulnerable ships in the early game so random speculative long shots go to them, blowing them up. Those speculative long shots would likely have done nothign at all if there weren't escorts about to eat the shots. So it's not like they were meaningfully being a distraction from something else. This was especially the case for single Escorts, sticking on multiple mitigated this somewhat bit started racking up cost and, in concert with now needing to buy CO they become even less of an attractive option.

Just stick on a weak gun so it can link in a die or two to the parent or shoot at an enemy frigate and stand a chance of scoring a point of damage, like a 3/2 or 3/1 turret with coherency effect.

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On 07/08/2017 at 3:15 PM, Ranus_Magnus said:

Have you ever tested an Ascendency as accompaniement of/to (?) a Judgement?

I second everything else you said.

Ascendency and Champion are not bad as accompaniment, it's just as squadrons they are wierd. Ascendency lacks enough PD to defend itself and both lack CP/AP to fend off even opportunity boarding from non-boarding oriented ships. Also their low CP means after one lucky critical they loose all of it and test for Disorder each turn. That's crippling for them. 

Champion is a much worse Vanquisher except for slightly better torps so unless you are really tight on points no reason to take it. Turmoils grav is also better and more durable. The only good option is with cyber as they are optimized to work differently than Tormentor with Stealth, but here you run into the CP/AP issue again. 

Ascendency is not cheap and 6 wings total is not enough as they have no other effective weapons and are easy to take out unless you send some Interceptors with them. When you lose first ship they lose both teeth and defences. 

I was in the FFG design team and these were a rushed job because of Neil giving us a less then a month to design and test these. Other proposals were given like Champion being a smaller Annihilation/Judgement having the fore fixed primary of Judgement up close. This would also tie nicely with additional mixed squadron options where one Champion could be replaced with Annihilation. It would also solve issues Taskforce boxes having only 2  medium ships in it. Sadly it wasn't adopted. Directorate has no need for Champion in the current form and same can be said for some other factions Taskforce ships. Now is the ideal time to tweak them. 

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the only use I've found for the champion is the fact that the gravity can be brought as a cruiser squadron not an R&D, which allows 4 squads of gravity guns in a grand fleet, or up to 3 in a battle fleet, but with the drawbacks, I didn't use them much, unless I was playing a terran who maxes out shields/w shield projectors (we had one who always did, he thought the champions were OP) ;) 

and in those fights, sorta, mostly cause he dumped so many points for shields that between grav, cyber, and boarding, didn't help much...

but even in those fights, they die fast

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The Judgement struggles as a battleship for several reasons.  Most notably though, it's a slow, unmanuverable ship in a fleet of speedy agile ships, and very likely to be the only non-cloaked or stealth capital ship on the board.  It doesn't fit with the rest of the fleet, and it only has one real weapon that can pull its own weight.

 

It feels like an awkward Terran battleship crammed into a directorate fleet book.  It's slow, takes little chunks of damage easily, and aside from its turret, can't do much. It doesn't have the AP to board anything on its own, and its torpedoes won't do anything at strength 6.  It's like a worse Apollo, except the Terran fleet is built around ships like it, whereas the directorate fleet is not.

 

Compare this to the Anarchist, which really feels like a directorate ship, is so customizable, and comes with all sorts of sneaky tricks.

 

Regular cruisers really just pale in comparison because of how crazy strong heavies are. Also being non cloaked/stealth means they die instantly, being the only obvious target.  They're not bad ships necessarily, but I can never justify taking them over heavies.  Maybe knock 5 pts off and bump the heavies cost a bit.

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Anarchist vs Judgement a lot is getting bandied about, looking at the fleet guide however gives actual facts/data.

-Slow and unwieldy:

Base Judgement, Mv6, TL2

Base Anarchist, Mv7, TL2

Upgraded Judgement, Mv6-8, TL1

Upgraded Anarchist, Mv7-8, TL2

 

Judgement can become TL1, Anarchist cannot, this compliments the Judgement's weapons. Anarchist more likely to be faster by an inch owing to build priorities. At worst, at absolute worst its equal with Anarchist in terms of mobility due to TL upgrade, so claiming the Judgement is slothful also defines the Anarchist as slothful.

 

-One weapon

It actually has 2, that can link for equal to best in class AD across 20" of range (16-18AD). Or fire them unlinked at Mediums, the issue is lack of Bio coherency on both, v3 is addressing double degrading.

 

-Takes huge chunks of damage easily.

Base Judgement, SH1, DR6, CR11

Base Anarchist, SH2, DR6, CR11

Upgraded Judgement, SH2, DR6, CR11

Upgraded Anarchist, SH2 or 1, DR6, CR11, Stealth at the cost of shields

Statistically identical or has superior damage mitigation in its primary RB's but doesn't possess Stealth, again a wash, if the Judgement takes large chunks of damage easily the statistically identical Anarchist does to.

 

-Worse Apollo

An Apollo has guns that's it, take away the guns of both ships and what do they do?

An Apollo shoots torps slightly better than a Judgement.

A Judgement with no guns. Shoots torps of iffy value, lays mines, can continue to provide support with SRS utility.

 

The Judgement costs 160pts base. The Anarchist 190pts base. Throw on +1SH, -1TL, +2 SRS. The Judgement now costs 205pts can turn sharper than the Anarchist has the same DR, CR and SH of the Anarchist and is bringing 3 Interceptors or Shuttles to the fleet. Meanwhile the Anarchist starts at 190pts, and only goes up, 205 if you use the base 3 SRS.

The Judgement needs its torps adjusted, and coherency with weapons addressed. But it is not the original v2 BB that everyone hated, please stop glossing over the notable rework it gained partway through v2.

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38 minutes ago, Edwin said:

Why have side arc torpedo's and front plating?

Because you maneuver around terrain features, not drive straight at the enemy.

As in. If I am approaching your fleet I would rather have an asteroid field between me and you until I am ready to attack you so I end up turning side on to move around those fields. having Indirect Fire weapons facing through the asteroids means I get full attack dice through them, most of your weapons get halved and if you move around the asteroids to get at me then I have my reinforced prow facing your attack (or you're behind me in which case I'm in trouble regardless).

Now, this is less of a benefit to the larger, slower, limited TL big ships but the smaller, decently fast mediums can make good use of this feature. Combined with the amount of Cyberwarfare and some Gravity you can bring (in v2) your fleets are well equipped to approach carefully more slowly by keeping terrain between you and the enemy for longer while still being able to attack (though...PD Mountain does neuter the torps a lot). Then once you're closer you can dash out right into optimal range band and/or boarding range without having to expose your ships to as many full AD attacks.

You likely arrive to optimal fighting range and such a turn later by doing this but your ships are often in a better state and you've potentially had longer to use those cyber weapons to ruin someone's day.

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16 minutes ago, Xystophoroi said:

Because you maneuver around terrain features, not drive straight at the enemy.

As in. If I am approaching your fleet I would rather have an asteroid field between me and you until I am ready to attack you so I end up turning side on to move around those fields. having Indirect Fire weapons facing through the asteroids means I get full attack dice through them, most of your weapons get halved and if you move around the asteroids to get at me then I have my reinforced prow facing your attack (or you're behind me in which case I'm in trouble regardless).

Now, this is less of a benefit to the larger, slower, limited TL big ships but the smaller, decently fast mediums can make good use of this feature. Combined with the amount of Cyberwarfare and some Gravity you can bring (in v2) your fleets are well equipped to approach carefully more slowly by keeping terrain between you and the enemy for longer while still being able to attack (though...PD Mountain does neuter the torps a lot). Then once you're closer you can dash out right into optimal range band and/or boarding range without having to expose your ships to as many full AD attacks.

You likely arrive to optimal fighting range and such a turn later by doing this but your ships are often in a better state and you've potentially had longer to use those cyber weapons to ruin someone's day.

Space has a very limited terrain features.

 

 

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Yes it is very likely any form of completely realistic large scale space engagement we could conceive of would have very little terrain. Also in regards to torpedoes every faction "realistically" would have a single any arc torpedo system because guided munitions can correct after launch and only one system would be necessary as the guidance could disperse the torps as necessary after launch against multiple targets.

Firestorm however is not the above, and terrain is an inherent part of the space battle as much as your fleet, and torpedo systems having arcs is part of faction character and balance (though the Judgement having a 7-8AD single any arc torps system would be interesting to investigate).

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So my take

Dreadnought - was a wrecking ball that never saw play - was designed to smash into ranks pop off cruisers sow discord and disorder and try a boarding or 2....which for a dread wasn't what I wanted. This was underused in V2 as it didn't fill a niche - needs to either tank like a foundry or smash harder 

Judgement - been done to death but was a great brawler - it was there to smash things hard - really doesn't need much tweaking, I always went with the moulded scalpel of the Antichrist over the brutal machete of the Judge

Carrier - Cloaks up in the air cybers weaker - but it was what it was can't see much to change here 

Gonna ignore the B/Station - never used it 

Torment - I love this, but then anchist gave me cyber + PD ment the torps never connected - should have had cloak I think or spook torps

Heavy cruisers - creep up board then shoot other things, again cloaks still up int he air but wouldn't change these much - boarders still please

Light cruisers - Didn't do enough - too many other things in the game. Points wise they're OK but I'd never find the 150+ points. If larger games played quick these could make interesting shunt bombs

Destroyers - poor they never made their points were mopped up and only 2 ina  squad meaning one dieing was it one taking a crit hurt too much as well

Frigates - never dissapointed - fine but underused by me I think as I loved....

Drones - Locally feared but with the changes in cyber...I don't know how they'd fare - I think they'll be shelved 

Anichrist - marvel of design could do so much - but not everything all at once - hats off as this was a wonder - boarder wings support tricks all sorts it could do - keep it as much as you can

Gunship - glass cannons and feared, pointed well and always did something 

Turmoil....mixed bag and with the change in grav going to be poor - fun with the cargo bomb but never used much 

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the carrier with support carriers is a good choice a bit overpriced, but good amount of SRS, Toprs and cloak.

 

Overall i find directorate fleet pretty balanced, maybe the tier 1 lacks firepower to face other tier 1, but hell we got the best tier 2 point wise.

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@Sniddy to add to what you've said

I used the battle station, thing was great, you start out de-cloaked, and you could throw 9AD at 40 inches by linking turrets, as they approach you turn off the cloaks and fire 2 independent cyber attacks, once they are weak enough, decloak and let them have it again :) good times, I loved it

drones-my favorite, but without "assault robot torpedoes"  i'm we'll see...I can't actually target subsystems anymore :( which means the whole cripple tier 1s and 2s from 40 inches, becomes harress tier 1s and 2s from 40 inches. but with PD mountain gone, and cyber able to do damage, they may still be quite viable. durable long range threats, drones are great.

I always thought the destroyers odd, they had mines, but to weak to really threaten much besides tier 3s, and even then, only more if they linked for 6 AD (though that is a moot point now) they only had decent AD in RB3 which was a lot of destroyers, but there torps were so weak... I usually had better choices for tier 2

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Never got around to painting my Directorate for V2- for what it's worth, an Escort Carrier accompaniment made the standard BB look pretty good.

 

The big issue to me is that it wants to be behind things- it wants to line up with an enemy squadron's aft arc and hit a few times. It wants to board, but its escorts can't take the same MARs. It wants to take the non-movement hardpoints. It suffers the same problem the Falx has- you want to shunt it in, but it's probably the ship your Admiral is sitting on, and you need those TACs. The benefit it has over the Falx is that you do have other options. You could take an Anarchist for your admiral and run it as a secondary BB instead, in larger games. Or use a Cyber-upgraded Overseer which will never have to decloak.

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