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S..Mike

3rd Edition Scoring

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Remembered that this hadn't been covered yet.

Scoring is changing to use a ship based Tactical Value log for keeping track of points.

  • Tactical Value (TV) is calculated at 10% of the total cost of a squadron (total includes all hardpoints, upgrades, accompaniments, ships, etc).  Fractions are rounded up.
  • Battle log format from 2nd Edition is no longer used.
  • Ships that perform a Fold Space escape award only half TV to the opponent
  • Some scenarios use TV as a countdown to determine game end conditions

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I had the same question when I saw it.  I don't remember if I asked the question at the time, or that I didn't worry about it.   Just like you guys, we were dealing with a lot of other stuff all at once.

Large numbers are intimidating?   

Yeah...me neither.   :huh:

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So if someone decides to take a lot of command points they are essentially denying their opponent a possible win since these aren't included when they both get down to one ship of the same cost and the game ends on turn. 

Yes, this is hypothetical but it could happen. Could really screw up a tournament that comes down to this as a tie breaker.

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Hadn't thought of that.  If you take the full 40% in CP and your opponent goes light, you have a relatively low bar of injury to inflict before you can Fold Escape your entire fleet for the win.  If you didn't lose anything while running, you'd only have to destroy ~30% of their fleet to get a win, not counting any TV for objectives.  If scenarios heavily weight objectives for TV, you might be able to just camp them a couple of turns and leave without ever fighting at all.

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2 hours ago, Paladin21 said:

Hadn't thought of that.  If you take the full 40% in CP and your opponent goes light, you have a relatively low bar of injury to inflict before you can Fold Escape your entire fleet for the win.  If you didn't lose anything while running, you'd only have to destroy ~30% of their fleet to get a win, not counting any TV for objectives.  If scenarios heavily weight objectives for TV, you might be able to just camp them a couple of turns and leave without ever fighting at all.

Especially egregious if a fleet favours long range firepower (indirect Torps for example) alongside those command points as they can spend them to focus fire for huge early alpha strikes before escaping then they could theoretically get those points in ranges the opponent can't effectively engage.

Also how do you score the points?

At destruction of ships or destruction of squadron? What about Tier 1s, half health matter anymore?

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Just thought I would point this out. As a former  competitive player, event organizer and judge I tend to notice ways to break the game and with the current rules it's relatively easy to game the system to the point of breaking.

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3 minutes ago, CoreHunter said:

Wow this took like 5hrs to poke holes in. So how long has testing for this been going on again?

What I'm curious about is the experience of the testers. Only took one read through for me to find the problem...Actually, this is the second issue I have discovered with only a cursory glance at the threads while at work. Wish I'd have started this game sooner so I could have gotten on that team.

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3 minutes ago, CoreHunter said:

The team is probably ignored on half the balance issues anyway so don't feel too bad. The problem lies with the devs.

If only I could work for Spartan 

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3 hours ago, Xystophoroi said:

Especially egregious if a fleet favours long range firepower (indirect Torps for example) alongside those command points as they can spend them to focus fire for huge early alpha strikes before escaping then they could theoretically get those points in ranges the opponent can't effectively engage.

Also how do you score the points?

At destruction of ships or destruction of squadron? What about Tier 1s, half health matter anymore?

Upon destruction of the squadron.  A fold space escape counts the squadron as destroyed for this purpose, but only scores half TV.

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Yes, the scenarios have TV requirements/thresholds.

As for the all or nothing...the beta team didn't come to a solid consensus either.  So, we decided to play it as needing full squadrons to score, and to see how many games might be determined by a half strength squadron surviving.  Most of the games that I played, the number of half-strength squadrons didn't matter as enough full squadrons were destroyed during the game.

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How many TV would a tier 2 model that survived a fold drive rupture but was placed off the board (and thus successfully performed a fold space escape) yield?

Follow up: Let's say it was the first member removed, and the rest of the squadron is successfully destroyed. How much TV is given out? Now let's flip that equation: The last member in a squadron suffers a fold space rupture and is moved off of the board. How many TV are gained? If it is different from the first scenario...why?

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I assume if you fold space rupture off the board you're dead, not safe.  The rules have always been that if you leave the board for whatever reason, you're destroyed.

For testing of TV, have any games been played/tested where one force aggressively seeks to destroy just enough TV from the opponent to counter losing half-TV from all their forces when you fold space out?  It seems that if you took the full 40% in CP, you'd have to kill a somewhere between half their force (if they also took a full 40%) up to 1 point over 30% of their force if they took no CP.  I would think that aggressively pursuing the easiest TV to gain and protecting any squads that look to be in danger of dying by fold space escape, you could have a pretty annoying strategy of hitting a few times and ghosting away with the win.  Even worse if you're in a scenario that allows you to pick up bonus TV.

I'd wager the scheme works fine when both sides want to be in the battle and participate.  How does it work when one side doesn't?

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I didn't see that, but you're right.  It definitely needs changed because it completely F's up all scoring for multi-model squads.  It also brings up questions about if you apply the damage first or the move first.  If you can apply the effect first, then you'd always survive if you landed off the table (I guess?) since there's no rule about inflicting damage to models that aren't in play.  Even if you apply the damage first, it's still a total cluster.  It would make it possible that in certain situations rolling one of the most damaging crit effects can actually *save* you points, which shouldn't be a thing.

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12 hours ago, Paladin21 said:

Erm, why bother to make us remember 10% cost, why not just use point total of the squads?  Everyone is going to have that information available on their fleet build sheet, it's just another number to keep track of if you use TV.

 

10% is probably to avoid the math for high numbers (though I agree a bit counterproductive on that point :D )

11 hours ago, Cernunnos said:

So if someone decides to take a lot of command points they are essentially denying their opponent a possible win since these aren't included when they both get down to one ship of the same cost and the game ends on turn. 

Yes, this is hypothetical but it could happen. Could really screw up a tournament that comes down to this as a tie breaker.

as long as it's handled right, this could work say if the scenario objectives are worth a LOT more

its called tactical value, if your playing to an objective, perhaps losing most of your fleet is worth the cost to obtain X

(like in the return of the overseers scenario perhaps)

I'm not saying I like it, but it could be viable

@Spartan Mike, how much are scenario objectives worth (some examples would be nice :) )

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5 hours ago, Polaris said:
17 hours ago, Paladin21 said:

Erm, why bother to make us remember 10% cost, why not just use point total of the squads?  Everyone is going to have that information available on their fleet build sheet, it's just another number to keep track of if you use TV.

 

10% is probably to avoid the math for high numbers (though I agree a bit counterproductive on that point :D )

This is why I think a cap on Comm Pts should be added weather it is 40,50 or 60 pts  what ever 

1) it needs to be agreed to by both sides as to the cap number and added to the MFV  ..... A 1000 pt game would 1040 or 50 or 60 ect

2) in turnement play I think to make it fair the Comm Pts should be set and by the sponsers of the game (s)  example 950 pts of models Comm cap 50 total pts 1000 pts mission capture the station ..................just a though

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We may indeed see a % cap on CO at some point.   We will evaluate that as we go on.  If everyone is bringing 50% of the MFV in CO, yeah, that's an issue.  But that would also be a couple of large squadrons, so I think the local metagames will sort that out just fine.  It's good to have plenty of CO, but you still need something to use them on.

@Polaris That's going to vary widely.  Some examples: -5 TV if the Admirals Vessel is destroyed; capture wrecked ship, +5 TV; enter a 'scoring zone' for TV of the squadron that entered; control a planet +10 TV; and so on.  

Destruction of some ships with the Strategic Value MAR will also award TV.

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