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S..Mike

3rd Edition Reserve / Shunting

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So at the risk of being told again how terrible things are (yes, getting a bit gun-shy here), here are the details for Shunt entry during the reserve phase. 

  • A squadron is defined as a reserve squadron during fleet selection, before deployment of other squadrons.
  • Squadrons may enter as Reserves, from the Friendly Table Edge (defined in the scenario), OR
  • Squadrons may enter as Flanking Forces, from Neutral Edges (also defined in the scenario).
  • You do not need to define whether a squadron is going to enter from Reserves or Flanking
  • Reserves become available during the Reserve Phase, according to the following tables:

s0beTTN.png

Shunt Procedures:

1. Nominate Squadrons - Beginning with the player with Strategic Dominance, a player nominates a Squadron from their Reserves/Flanking Forces that they wish to enter the battlefield this turn. 

2. Determine Availability - The player then rolls a [Black] D6 for the nominated squadron requiring the roll stated above to permit the Squadron to become available. The player may elect to modify the result of the Die Roll by +1/-1 if they wish by spending a single Command Point. 

3. Place the prefered Ingress Point and Determine Ingress Trajectory – Place a marker (or suitable token) on the nominated Board Edge the models will be entering from, and another Marker up to the Ingress Distance applicable to the Game Turn in which the Squadron is arriving (see tables above) – this forms an Ingress Trajectory. The Ingress Trajectory must be perpendicular to the nominated entry Board Edge. 
For Example: A Squadron arriving in Turn 3, electing to deploy from Reserve (rather than Flanking) would place a marker on their Friendly Board Edge and another marker up to 16” away, creating a line that was perpendicular to the Friendly Board Edge. 

4. Determine Overshoot – The player rolls [Black] 2D6 to determine their Overshoot Distance which is added to the squadron’s Ingress Trajectory, using the Ingress Point as its starting point. 

Important Note #1: Once a Squadron has Shunted, it may activate normally in the upcoming Game Turn. A Shunted Squadron MUST deploy in its entirety, in coherency with each other and can face any orientation they wish. 

5. Deploy Squadron – The Squadron is now deployed by placing the largest vessel in the squadron at that location, with all other models deploying in coherency of it, facing any direction the controlling player chooses. 

6. Next Player Nominates - Play passes to the player with the Operational Dominance to resolve which squadrons they wish to Shunt this turn. Priority then alternates until both players decide to defer their Reserves/Flanking Forces. Once you pass, you cannot shunt in another squadron until the next turn.

And yes, there is still the Shunt Matrix (distance) MAR:

Shunt Matrix (Value) Models with this MAR may increase (or decrease) their arrival roll from reserve by the Value listed in the Bracket. 

 

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Shunt matrix is now a reserve roll manipulation? 

Do Relthoza still have battle shunts? Can their ships shunt around the board 2D6 - 5D6 (roughly) inches every turn? 

Battle shunts are a big part of Relthoza theme.

 

Secondly I'm not sure I clearly follow here, in this v3 stuff can I still bring a squad on from board edge rather than shunting in? Or does everything "shunt" in using this new ingress trajectory line? So I can't say bring 6 Wayfarers in turn 3 hugging the board edge, they will scatter at minimum 2" in?

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11 minutes ago, Meatshield said:

Shunt matrix is now a reserve roll manipulation? 

Do Relthoza still have battle shunts? Can their ships shunt around the board 2D6 - 5D6 (roughly) inches every turn?

More important, what about my Kedorians?:huh:

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Follow up question. Perpendicular means 90 degree angle, so this means that the line drawn always has to be at a ninety degree angle from the appropriate board edge, so no angled Ingress trajectories. This seems like a very verbose way of saying: Pick a point on the board up to X" in from designated board edge (X equals appropriate value based on turn number), roll 2D6 and add that number to X directly away from designated board edge.

By definition of perpendicular there is no room to create an angled line. So this all seems to be an overly complex way of literally picking a point on the board X inches away from a designated edge.

 

Edit: If you want ingress trajectory to actually mean something remove the perpendicular restriction, make the measurement from the point on the nominated board edge to the point on the board (so it can be angled but an angled line loses perpendicular board ingression). Then the player decides whether they want to under or over shoot then roll 2D6 and the squad scatters along that line. This creates an actual purpose for the whole trajectory line setup and it allows players to setup reserve entries in ways that insulates from scattering into terrain at the cost of perpendicular distance.

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Okay. This is interesting. So now shunting ships will "fly onto" the battlefield, rather than being plopped down from wherever. I rather like that. However, that's hella wordy in the Ingress Point and Tradjectory. You don't need the table-edge marker if the tradjectory is always going to be perpendicular to the table edge the squad is entering from, for one, so placing the Ingress Marker within X" of the table edge is enough, the process does the rest of that work for you. So, yeah, echoing @Meatshield on that. Secondly, why name all this stuff? You can name the steps, you don't have to name the dice roll the "Overshoot Distance" if the dice roll is the entire step and the step is called "Determine Overshoot." Same with Ingress Trajectory, the naming is meaningless and adds unecessary wordage to the description.

 

I would also add that using a single chart and imposing a -8" penalty for nuetral instead of friendly board edges and saying you can't elect to enter from a board edge if doing so would put you at less than 0" Ingress Distance would have the same effect on a single chart, saving space.

 

I like the system, I just dislike the words used to explain it. 

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What does 4 mean?

You roll 2d6 and add it to the Trajectory using Ingress Point as the start point? You add 2d6 inches to the starting point? Doesn't that push the start point off the table edge but leave the trajectory point unchanged?

What happens if the trajectory line passes through scenery or other ships?

It doesn't appear that there is an 8 inch exclusion zone so I could theoretically shunt in within 2 or 3 inches of the enemy?

It says I nominate a squadron I wish to enter the table that turn. Does that mean I don't have to nominate any of my reserve squadrons if i don't want to on any given turn?

Overall I like it, this system seems more reliable and gives more strategic planning options early (e.g.: building your list around the idea of having your reserves turn up on turn 3 because you can wait until then to roll) and leaves in tactical choice at moment of entry.

The wording needs some work but it seems good and I am immediately thinking up plans and ways to use this to jump on my enemy.

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Does this mean you have to have an FSD to be held in reserve, or that if you reserve a no-FSD squad it can only enter from the friendly board edge?  In either case, I think the mechanic is really wordy and needs to be simplified.  Also, no risk of failure now, just the automatic overshoot roll?  Seems far more reliable than the previous method.  Relthoza, assuming they still have shunt matrix everywhere, are going to be a nightmare to fight since they can pop in from wherever pretty much on demand.

Also, what's up with picking squads based on domination instead of who's going first?  Seems a step back in that regard.

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Ahh

 

1. The right angle is required when the plaers edge may only be half of the board edge (corner deployment)

2. You can select up to X amount of inches, so it's possible to choose 0" in.

3. Then a touch of random offset.

4. Imagine there is still a battle shunt

5. and no negative effects which is yuge.

 

seems reasonable.

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I found this whole section to be very confusing in it's wording, possibly because it still uses terms like Flanking and Shunting (separate things in v2) but seems to be combining them in v3?

14 hours ago, Meatshield said:

Follow up question. Perpendicular means 90 degree angle, so this means that the line drawn always has to be at a ninety degree angle from the appropriate board edge, so no angled Ingress trajectories. This seems like a very verbose way of saying: Pick a point on the board up to X" in from designated board edge (X equals appropriate value based on turn number), roll 2D6 and add that number to X directly away from designated board edge.

Yeah, I agree.  That could be written up much more simply.

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Sorry it's taken me awhile to get back to this topic.

I agree on the wording.  There is some smithing that needs to be done here.  Regarding Flanking vs. Reserve entry, the game board is defined in a scenario as to friendly & neutral edges, and various zones:

3tVKXvH.jpg

The Reserve entry comes from your friendly edge.  The Flanking entry comes from the defined neutral edges.  You cannot shunt in from the enemy edge.

On 8/2/2017 at 10:19 PM, Meatshield said:

Shunt matrix is now a reserve roll manipulation? 

Do Relthoza still have battle shunts? Can their ships shunt around the board 2D6 - 5D6 (roughly) inches every turn? 

Battle shunts are a big part of Relthoza theme.

 

Secondly I'm not sure I clearly follow here, in this v3 stuff can I still bring a squad on from board edge rather than shunting in? Or does everything "shunt" in using this new ingress trajectory line? So I can't say bring 6 Wayfarers in turn 3 hugging the board edge, they will scatter at minimum 2" in?

Yes, Shunt Matrix only influences when a squadron can come on board.  Battle shunts are handled differently, there is a separate MAR that deals with the ability to move about the board.   It's not the same as a battle shunt, but the ability is there.   It will be detailed in the Relthoza re-stat thread.

You can place the ingress point on the game board edge, but yes, the entire squadron will jump in between 2"-12" from that point.  The entire squadron comes in all at once, in coherency; there isn't a separate roll for each model.

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On 8/3/2017 at 1:50 AM, Xystophoroi said:
  1. What does 4 mean?  You roll 2d6 and add it to the Trajectory using Ingress Point as the start point? You add 2d6 inches to the starting point? Doesn't that push the start point off the table edge but leave the trajectory point unchanged?
  2. What happens if the trajectory line passes through scenery or other ships?
  3. It doesn't appear that there is an 8 inch exclusion zone so I could theoretically shunt in within 2 or 3 inches of the enemy?
  4. It says I nominate a squadron I wish to enter the table that turn. Does that mean I don't have to nominate any of my reserve squadrons if i don't want to on any given turn?

Overall I like it, this system seems more reliable and gives more strategic planning options early (e.g.: building your list around the idea of having your reserves turn up on turn 3 because you can wait until then to roll) and leaves in tactical choice at moment of entry.

The wording needs some work but it seems good and I am immediately thinking up plans and ways to use this to jump on my enemy.

Numbering added to help in answering questions.

Here is a rough figure to help illustrate question #1:

9F5ukql.jpg

  1. The player selects a squadron of four frigates (blue ships)
  2. The dice is rolled to determine availability.  Since they are coming in on the flank, and it is turn 4, a 3+ is needed.  A 2 is rolled, so a CO is spent to modify the roll to a 3, in order to get them on the table.
  3. The entry edge point is selected at A, the ingress point is selected at B.  Because it is turn 4, point B can be no more than 16" from A.  This distance changes from turn to turn.  The line A-B is the Ingress Trajectory.  
  4. Roll the overshoot.  A 7 is rolled, and added to the perpendicular line A-B.  The end of line A-C is where one ship of the squadron will enter.
  5. The squadron of FF comes in, with one ship placed on the end of Line A-C, in any facing it chooses.  This is point D, the top left ship.  The rest of the ships follow in, being placed within coherency, with facing chosen by the controlling player.
  6. Continue bringing in squadrons until there is nothing left, or until both have passed.  Once you pass, you are done; you cannot bring anything else in this turn.

Question #2:  If the entry point passes into an enemy squadron, place according to the Proximity Vectoring rules (similar to what we have in V2.)  If you land in terrain, at least one ship will potentially suffer a collision.  The rest of the squadron might too, if they can't deploy in coherence around the final entry point (the end of line A-C).

Question #3:  No exclusion zone.  You can try to get as close as you want.

Question #4:  You are not required to bring in any squadron, on any given turn.

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1 hour ago, Spartan_FA_Mike said:

Numbering added to help in answering questions.

Here is a rough figure to help illustrate question #1:

9F5ukql.jpg

  1. The player selects a squadron of four frigates (blue ships)
  2. The dice is rolled to determine availability.  Since they are coming in on the flank, and it is turn 4, a 3+ is needed.  A 2 is rolled, so a CO is spent to modify the roll to a 3, in order to get them on the table.
  3. The entry edge point is selected at A, the ingress point is selected at B.  Because it is turn 4, point B can be no more than 16" from A.  This distance changes from turn to turn.  The line A-B is the Ingress Trajectory.  
  4. Roll the overshoot.  A 7 is rolled, and added to the perpendicular line A-B.  The end of line A-C is where one ship of the squadron will enter.
  5. The squadron of FF comes in, with one ship placed on the end of Line A-C, in any facing it chooses.  The rest of the ships follow in, being placed within coherency, with facing chosen by the controlling player.
  6. Continue bringing in squadrons until there is nothing left, or until both have passed.  Once you pass, you are done; you cannot bring anything else in this turn.

Question #2:  If the entry point passes into an enemy squadron, place according to the Proximity Vectoring rules (similar to what we have in V2.)  If you land in terrain, at least one ship will potentially suffer a collision.  The rest of the squadron might too, if they can't deploy in coherence around the final entry point (the end of line A-C).

Question #3:  No exclusion zone.  You can try to get as close as you want.

Question #4:  You are not required to bring in any squadron, on any given turn.

What is D?

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@Spartan Mike

Forgive my shoddy paint skills, this is a very simplified example. Lines and marking are not to scale, they're exaggerated for clarity.

Map.jpg

Key:

Red Star = dangerous enemy I want reserves to hide from

Brown Bolt = Asteroid/Debris/Minefield

Blue Lines = Ingress trajectories using current v3 rules

Light Blue lines = Overshoot distance of Blue line ingress trajectory

Black Line = Ingress trajectory without perpendicular requirement (so remove that qualifier from the rules)

Red lines = Section of ingress trajectory reinforcing squad could over/undershoot along owing to the ingress trajectory influencing scatter

 

 

Hopefully the above explains better why I think you should remove the perpendicular restriction, make the measurement from the point on the nominated board edge to the point on the board (so it can be angled but an angled line loses perpendicular board ingress). Then the player decides whether they want to under or over shoot then roll 2D6 and the squad scatters along that line. This creates an actual purpose for the whole trajectory line setup and it allows players to setup reserve entries in ways that insulates from scattering into terrain at the cost of perpendicular distance. At present the entire ingress trajectory doesn't actually serve a function because players can bypass that by just measuring straight in X", by allowing angled trajectories they now have a purpose in regards to how the reinforcing squad scatters.

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why do we need a new a whole new system that removes options? why not just have shunt and flanking?

shunt: when activated the shunting unit arrives anywhere outside 8" of enemy units and cannot move the next activation. flanking: A single model from a flanking unit is set on the edge it intends to arrive from when the unit is activated moves on from a board. To represent units sneaking or rushing a flank add or subtract the current turn number to the units MV.

relthozan battle shunt: units can move in their activation after shunting.

Shunt Matrix: unit can roll 1-2 d6. Each model recieves a disorder marker then moves up to the rolled value in any direction.

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One reason is they obviously want to limit the area you can Shunt into. You are no longer allowed to Shunt into the battlefield behind a ship 8" from the player's deployment edge.

That being said, this limitation can be very easily added to the current rules without this massive and wordy rule.

Shunt Deployment: A squadron deploying via Shunt Deployment must deploy all models within a certain distance of either the friendly player edge or neutral player edge as shown on the chart. Each model must be placed in coherency of all other deployed models of the squadron and may be facing in any direction desired.  No model can be placed within 8" of an enemy model nor within the opponent's deployment zone.

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I like the new deployment mechanics... Here's an idea, though, for battle shunts. Since you already have the Ingress mechanic in place, have Battle Shunting read as an imediate redeploy, using the location of one member of the squad as the Ingress Point and not requiring the ingress trajectory to be perpendicular to anything. The Shunt Matrix value would serve as the bonus Ingress Distance, rather than using the tables.

 

This is how I would write it:

 

Shunt Matrix (X"): In the (x) Phase, a squad containing only ships with the Shunt Matrix MAR may redeploy using the rules for Shunt Entry from Reserves, with the following exceptions: the Ingress Point is chosen as a flight stem of one of the ships in the squadron rather than a point on a table edge; that ship must be placed first during the shunt, the Ingress Trajectory does not need to be perpendicular to any table edge, and the Ingress Distance is the lowest Shunt Matrix (X") value among members of the squad. Note that you do not need to make a reserves roll- the ships are already here!

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