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S..Mike

3rd Edition Weapons Systems

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2 minutes ago, Spartan_FA_Mike said:

 Capping the odds at an arbitrary number is just trying to skew the results to the point of view you are advocating.

 

I take umbrage with this comment.

I'm not advocating any particular result, All I was doing is presenting numbers so people can have a basis to correctly argue on these points. I even used an 80% and 40% confidence in the dice rolling groups and showed my work so people could find any mistakes that I have made. And 80% wasn't an arbitrary number it is a number I have used in simulations as what you can reasonable expect.

The only 2 changes I have advocated so far in the new 3.0 weapon systems was a returned to fixed arc and not removing success from the dice rolls. And neither of those arguments have been because I "skewed" numbers.

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Personally, I don't care if we remove Dice or Hits for damage. I am mostly concerned about the increasing impact of ship damage to your roll. If a Die is worth 0.8 Hits, then the increase we see in effects of damage is:

Damage  Hits by Dice

  1. 0.8
  2. 1.6
  3. 2.4
  4. 3.2
  5. 4
  6. 4.8
  7. 5.6
  8. 6.4

As you can see, the higher the damage the more drastic loss of hits in your attack. This can be compensated for slightly with higher dice pools or use of Weapon Shielding and Encased Weapon Systems MARs to reduce the effect of damage on specific weapons.

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17 minutes ago, Spartan_FA_Mike said:

As for the argument "You take away the success that I rolled, and that is bad" the equal argument can be made that "I didn't even get to roll as many dice as I thought, you took it away before I even had a chance to get something."  At some point your going to be removing results due to damage, shields, PD, or whatever.  The revised system makes for an easier and faster method for shooting.  For all of us that did it the 2nd edition way, it's an adjustment.  But for new players (and we need those people to come in), they probably won't notice the difference.

It's not fundamentally flawed, but it is different from what you are used to.

My question would be that how

Lead AD + Linked AD => Results - Damage

is less complicated/faster than

Lead AD + Linked AD - Damage => Result ?

I would think the latter formula provides results much closer to the current system, while solving it's problems, while it requires less balancing wizardy on the ship profiles.

Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not demanding a change in the system, I'd just prefer to have an explanation if it's possible. Is it because planetfall does things this way, and you're trying to merge the fundamental AD counting methods of the two systems (without modifying the damage system it affects)?

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4 minutes ago, Xystophoroi said:

I don't think people are arguing for retaining the 2nd edition rules exactly. People seemed generally very positive about the split Lead/Linked change AND treating damage across squadrons rather than individual ships.

So. 3 ships, lead 6, linked 3, one ship has 1 damage, one has 2.

6+3+3 (lead+linked) - 3 (damage) means roll 6 dice rather than roll 9 dice, subtract 3 successes.

My thought was how can we simply move the damage penalty to before the dice rolling simply.

with P(x) = x *.81

Version 2.0 

P(6-0+((6-1+6-2)/2)) = 8 hits

Version 3.0 

P(6+(3+3)) -3 = 7 hits

Version (Off the cuff suggestion)

P(6+(3+3) - (1+2)) = 7 hits

if we make each ship have 2 damage this becomes

P(6-2+((6-2+6-2)/2)) = 6 hits

P(6+(3+3)) - 6 = 4 hits

P(6+(3+3) - (2+2+2)) = 5 hits

Edge case of 2 weapons per ship mixed damage

P(6-0+((6-0+6-1+6-1+6-2+6-2)/2)) = 15 hits

P(6+(3+3+3+3+3)) - 3 = 14 hits

P(6+(3+3+3+3+3) - (0+1+2)) = 15 hits

Edge case of 2 weapons per ship 2 damage each

P(6-2+((6-2+6-2+6-2+6-2+6-2)/2)) = 11 hits

P(6+(3+3+3+3+3)) - 6 = 11 hits

P(6+(3+3+3+3+3) - (2+2+2+2)) = 11 hits

 

So my off the cuff suggestion seems to:

  • hold the numbers in line with the current system
  • greatly reducing the complexity of computing the dice pool
  • removes the negative feelings of loosing successes

 

 

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@Small Mek

It's the calculation of the (Linked AD - Damage) pool that is the issue.   Which can you compute faster:

7-2+(7-2+7-2)/2 = ?

or 

7+4+4 = ?

Now for us (who have played a lot), we might be able to come up with the first number pretty fast, because we've done it a lot.  But it is intimidating to new or infrequent players.

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35 minutes ago, Spartan_FA_Mike said:

@Small Mek

It's the calculation of the (Linked AD - Damage) pool that is the issue.   Which can you compute faster:

7-2+(7-2+7-2)/2 = ?

or 

7+4+4 = ?

Now for us (who have played a lot), we might be able to come up with the first number pretty fast, because we've done it a lot.  But it is intimidating to new or infrequent players.

Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying, that we should go back to the old system completely, just reorder the sequence the damage is taken into consideration. I'll try to explain it better. In your example it would be:

current beta:

7+4+4 = ?-3

Our proposed method:

7+4+4-3 = ?

Edit: Also I was reallly only trying to ask about the reason of the current method used in the beta, rather than asking for a change, as it has been implied to be almost pointless.

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6 minutes ago, Spartan_FA_Mike said:

@Small Mek

It's the calculation of the (Linked AD - Damage) pool that is the issue.   Which can you compute faster:

7-2+(7-2+7-2)/2 = ?

or 

7+4+4 = ?

Now for us (who have played a lot), we might be able to come up with the first number pretty fast, because we've done it a lot.  But it is intimidating to new or infrequent players.

 

I don't think anyone is arguing for the formula

(Lead AD - Damage) + (Linked AD - Damage) -> Roll

More along of the lines of moving the minus damage to the left of the rolling.

Lead AD + Linked AD -> Roll -> Minus Damage

Something like my off the cuff suggestion

(Lead AD) + (Linked AD) - (Lead Damage+Linked Damage) -> Roll

 

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 The whole argument that linking in v2 was a barrier to entry for new players is so very flawed . Who are you trying to attract exactly as new players 5 year olds ? Soccer moms? People who are interested in war games tend to be used to be able to do simple math. If anything v3 is far more complicated so that argument is very moot. So if you had a reason to change it like that's don't use that as an  example why because you are taking it in the opposite direction from being streamlined. V2 people only needed to read the rules once in most cases to understand it and now we are still not sure exactly how you want it To work after multiple readings and we been playing the game for years.

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@Mathhammer, @Small Mek

Sorry, I was typing up my response when your comments came in, so my answer wasn't quite up to date.

I see what your saying.   I'll take it back and see what the beta side things.  Removing dice vs. Removing success...I can see arguments for both sides.  Personally, I'd rather roll more dice and hope for extra 6's, but I understand where you are coming from.

 

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3 hours ago, Spartan_FA_Mike said:

@Mathhammer, @Small Mek

Sorry, I was typing up my response when your comments came in, so my answer wasn't quite up to date.

I see what your saying.   I'll take it back and see what the beta side things.  Removing dice vs. Removing success...I can see arguments for both sides.  Personally, I'd rather roll more dice and hope for extra 6's, but I understand where you are coming from.

 

I quick rolled some numbers the number of hits are are all grouped pretty close.

I also cleaned up the data presentation again this one I think this presentation is better than the last 2.

OFC - Off The cuff damage calculation

  • Choose a weapon and ship as the lead weapon.
  • Choose weapons and ships to link in to the lead weapon.
  • Subtract from the dice pool the damage on the lead ship.
  • Subtract from the dice pool the damage on all ships that linked in.
  • Roll for hits.
  • Note: The damage on the lead ship can be counted twice if it both leads the attack and links into the attack.
  • Note: The number of dice can never be less than the number of unique ships contributing to the attack.

Note: The lead ship is the first column in the breakout columns when linking against itself.

1 Ship 1 Weapon

                                   Version 2.0          Version 3.0            Version OFC  
Lead Link Dice Link Dice  Damage    Final      Hits      Final      Hits        Final      Hits  
Dice  Breakout  Breakout  Breakout  Dice  80%  40%  .81  Dice  80%  40%  .81  Dice  80%  40%  .81
   6   0  0  0   0  0  0   0  0  0 |  6    3    5    5  |  6    3    5    5  |  6    3    5    5
   6   0  0  0   0  0  0   1  0  0 |  5    2    4    4  |  6    2    4    4  |  5    2    4    4
   6   0  0  0   0  0  0   2  0  0 |  4    1    3    3  |  6    1    3    3  |  4    1    3    3
   6   0  0  0   0  0  0   3  0  0 |  3    1    3    2  |  6    0    2    2  |  3    1    3    2
   6   0  0  0   0  0  0   4  0  0 |  2    0    2    2  |  6    0    1    1  |  2    0    2    2
   6   0  0  0   0  0  0   5  0  0 |  1    0    1    1  |  6    0    0    0  |  1    0    1    1


1 Ship 2 Weapons

                                   Version 2.0          Version 3.0            Version OFC  
Lead Link Dice Link Dice  Damage    Final      Hits      Final      Hits        Final      Hits  
Dice  Breakout  Breakout  Breakout  Dice  80%  40%  .81  Dice  80%  40%  .81  Dice  80%  40%  .81
   6   6  0  0  0  0  0   0  0  0 |  9    4    8    7  |  9    4    8    7  |  8    4    7    6
   6   6  0  0  0  0  0   1  0  0 |  7    3    6    6  |  9    3    7    6  |  7    3    6    6
   6   6  0  0  0  0  0   2  0  0 |  6    3    5    5  |  9    2    6    5  |  6    3    5    5
   6   6  0  0  0  0  0   3  0  0 |  4    1    3    3  |  9    1    5    4  |  5    2    4    4
   6   6  0  0  0  0  0   4  0  0 |  3    1    3    2  |  9    0    4    3  |  4    1    3    3
   6   6  0  0  0  0  0   5  0  0 |  2    0    2    2  |  9    0    3    2  |  3    1    2    2


3 Ship 1 Weapon/each

                                   Version 2.0          Version 3.0            Version OFC  
Lead Link Dice Link Dice  Damage    Final      Hits      Final      Hits        Final      Hits  
Dice  Breakout  Breakout  Breakout  Dice  80%  40%  .81  Dice  80%  40%  .81  Dice  80%  40%  .81
   6   0  6  6   0  0  0   0  0  0 | 12    6   10   10  | 12    6   10   10  | 12    6   10   10
   6   0  6  6   0  0  0   1  1  1 | 10    5    9    8  | 12    3    7    7  |  9    4    8    7
   6   0  6  6   0  0  0   2  2  2 |  8    4    7    6  | 12    0    1    4  |  6    3    5    5
   6   0  6  6   0  0  0   3  3  3 |  6    3    5    5  | 12    0    0    1  |  3    1    3    2
   6   0  6  6   0  0  0   4  4  4 |  4    1    3    3  | 12    0    0    0  |  3    1    3    2
   6   0  6  6   0  0  0   5  5  5 |  3    1    3    2  | 12    0    0    0  |  3    1    3    2


3 Ship 2 Weapon/each
 

                                   Version 2.0          Version 3.0            Version OFC  
Lead Link Dice Link Dice  Damage    Final      Hits      Final      Hits        Final      Hits  
Dice  Breakout  Breakout  Breakout  Dice  80%  40%  .81  Dice  80%  40%  .81  Dice  80%  40%  .81
   6   0  6  6   6  6  6   0  0  0 | 21   13   18   17  | 21   13   18   17  | 21   13   18   17
   6   0  6  6   6  6  6   1  1  1 | 17   10   14   14  | 21   10   15   14  | 17   10   14   14
   6   0  6  6   6  6  6   2  2  2 | 14    8   12   11  | 21    7   12   11  | 13    7   11   11
   6   0  6  6   6  6  6   3  3  3 | 10    5    9    8  | 21    4    9    8  |  9    4    8    7
   6   0  6  6   6  6  6   4  4  4 |  7    3    6    6  | 21    1    6    5  |  5    2    4    4
   6   0  6  6   6  6  6   5  5  5 |  6    3    5    5  | 21    0    3    2  |  3    1    3    2

 

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1 hour ago, Castro said:

So I do not want to sound dumb but... is there a TLDR of the math or....

not really, It's a lot of trying to present a model of the number of hits you would see in the V2.0 vs V3.0 vs an OFC rule i came up with.

Maybe I could present the V3.0 and OFC numbers as +- numbers off the 2.0 numbers??

It's really a just look at the chart and see what the current range of values of hits are and who the next version will modify it to.

                                        Version 2.0          Version 3.0            Version OFC  
Lead Link Dice Link Dice  Damage    Final      Hits      Final      Hits        Final      Hits  
Dice  Breakout  Breakout  Breakout  Dice  80%  40%  .81  Dice  80%  40%  .81  Dice  80%  40%  .81
   6   0  6  6   6  6  6   0  0  0 | 21   13   18   17  | 21   13   18   17  | 21   13   18   17

so in this case the lead weapon is 6 dice,

there are 5 linked weapons at 6 dice each, (one off the lead ship, and 4 off 2 other ships)

Then the amount of damage present on each ship

In each of the game versions the number of hits is broke down into an

  • Total dice the player will roll
  • 80% confidence (If I roll X dice I have an 80% chance to get at least this many hits)
  • 40% confidence
  • and using a flat 81% against the number of dice rolled.

So in the example above you can say for an non-damage squadron linking 2 weapons off each ship there is no difference in the number of hits you can expect.

                                        Version 2.0          Version 3.0            Version OFC  
Lead Link Dice Link Dice  Damage    Final      Hits      Final      Hits        Final      Hits  
Dice  Breakout  Breakout  Breakout  Dice  80%  40%  .81  Dice  80%  40%  .81  Dice  80%  40%  .81
   6   0  6  6   6  6  6   2  2  2 | 14    8   12   11  | 21    7   12   11  | 13    7   11   11

In this line you could say

For a squadron with 2 points of damage per ship linking 2 weapons off each ship at worst I will see one less success but no increases in my number of success.

 

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If both removal of dice and removal of successes are contentious, maybe other, different options should be considered as well?

What if damage would lead to an appropriate number of dice from the pool becoming heavy instead?

(Obviously, this would mandate a change to Cloak as well, but seeing that the new Cloak has come under fire anyway...)

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The results of reducing hits are more survival ships if the DR/CR are kept the same, thus longer games and more tactical maneuverings

or the DR/CR are proportionally adjusted, it comes down to how it feels whether you reduce attack dice or hit dice and as a matter of style, will always have subjective objections 

 

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15 minutes ago, fracas said:

The results of reducing hits are more survival ships if the DR/CR are kept the same, thus longer games and more tactical maneuverings

or the DR/CR are proportionally adjusted, it comes down to how it feels whether you reduce attack dice or hit dice and as a matter of style, will always have subjective objections 

 

Which is kinda why we can't really give proper feedback in a vacuum on things like weapon systems and linked fire without knowing what the actual ship stats are likely to look like .

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15 minutes ago, Xerkics said:

Which is kinda why we can't really give proper feedback in a vacuum on things like weapon systems and linked fire without knowing what the actual ship stats are likely to look like .

I agree, the question really comes up do we want weapon systems to be same, stronger or weaker as the damage increases.

Also add to it some ships that have to self link to get their big gun to fire have historically been considered to weak as the damage accumulates.

since @Castro wanted a simplier version I decided to try 2 ships I know and add difference blocks so people may see the change easier.

what you think @WestAustralian ??

 

My 2 cents I like the OFC version without double counting the lead ship. It basically fixes the double degradation penalty and makes keeps the new design where squadrons get weaker as the damage accumulates. I still want to model two more dreadnoughts and 2 squadrons with different damage on each ship to feel really good about it.

 

1 Ship 2 Weapon (Dindrenzi DREADNOUGHT - Retribution)
                                        Version 2.0          Version 3.0        Version OFC+lead     Version OFC        
Lead Link Dice Link Dice  Damage    Final      Hits      Final      Hits      Final      Hits      Final      Hits      
Dice  Breakout  Breakout  Breakout  Dice  80%  40%  .81  Dice  80%  40%  .81  Dice  80%  40%  .81  Dice  80%  40%  .81  
  14  14  0  0   0  0  0   0  0  0 | 21   13   18   17  | 21   13   18   17  | 21   13   18   17  | 21   13   18   17  |
  14  14  0  0   0  0  0   1  0  0 | 19   11   16   15  | 21   12   17   16  | 19   11   16   15  | 20   12   17   16  |
  14  14  0  0   0  0  0   2  0  0 | 18   11   15   15  | 21   11   16   15  | 17   10   14   14  | 19   11   16   15  |
  14  14  0  0   0  0  0   3  0  0 | 16    9   14   13  | 21   10   15   14  | 15    8   13   12  | 18   11   15   15  |
  14  14  0  0   0  0  0   4  0  0 | 15    8   13   12  | 21    9   14   13  | 13    7   11   11  | 17   10   14   14  |
  14  14  0  0   0  0  0   5  0  0 | 13    7   11   11  | 21    8   13   12  | 11    6    9    9  | 16    9   14   13  |
  14  14  0  0   0  0  0   6  0  0 | 12    6   10   10  | 21    7   12   11  |  9    4    8    7  | 15    8   13   12  |
  14  14  0  0   0  0  0   7  0  0 | 10    5    9    8  | 21    6   11   10  |  7    3    6    6  | 14    8   12   11  |
  14  14  0  0   0  0  0   8  0  0 |  9    4    8    7  | 21    5   10    9  |  5    2    4    4  | 13    7   11   11  |
  14  14  0  0   0  0  0   9  0  0 |  7    3    6    6  | 21    4    9    8  |  3    1    3    2  | 12    6   10   10  |
  14  14  0  0   0  0  0  10  0  0 |  6    3    5    5  | 21    3    8    7  |  1    0    1    1  | 11    6    9    9  |
  14  14  0  0   0  0  0  11  0  0 |  4    1    3    3  | 21    2    7    6  |  1    0    1    1  | 10    5    9    8  |
                                   |                    +--------------------+--------------------+--------------------+
                                   |                    | 21    -    -    -  | 21    -    -    -  | 21    -    -    -  |
                                   |                    | 21   +1   +1   +1  | 19    -    -    -  | 20   +1   +1   +1  |
                                   |                    | 21    -    -    -  | 17   -1   -1   -1  | 19    -   +1    -  |
                                   |                    | 21   +1   +1   +1  | 15   -1   -1   -1  | 18   +2   +1   +2  |
                                   |                    | 21   +1   +1   +1  | 13   -1   -2   -1  | 17   +2   +1   +2  |
                                   |                    | 21   +1   +2   +1  | 11   -1   -2   -2  | 16   +2   +3   +2  |
                                   |                    | 21   +1   +2   +1  |  9   -2   -2   -3  | 15   +2   +3   +2  |
                                   |                    | 21   +1   +2   +2  |  7   -2   -3   -2  | 14   +3   +3   +3  |
                                   |                    | 21   +1   +2   +2  |  5   -2   -4   -3  | 13   +3   +3   +4  |
                                   |                    | 21   +1   +3   +2  |  3   -2   -3   -4  | 12   +3   +4   +4  |
                                   |                    | 21    -   +2   +2  |  1   -3   -4   -4  | 11   +3   +4   +4  |
                                   |                    | 21   +1   +4   +3  |  1   -1   -2   -2  | 10   +4   +6   +5  |


 

3 Ships 1 Weapon/each (Dindrenzi Cruiser - Secutor)
                                        Version 2.0          Version 3.0        Version OFC+lead     Version OFC
Lead Link Dice Link Dice  Damage    Final      Hits      Final      Hits        Final      Hits      Final      Hits  
Dice  Breakout  Breakout  Breakout  Dice  80%  40%  .81  Dice  80%  40%  .81  Dice  80%  40%  .81  Dice  80%  40%  .81
   8   0  8  8   0  0  0   0  0  0 | 16    9   14   13  | 16    9   14   13  | 16    9   14   13  | 16    9   14   13  |
   8   0  8  8   0  0  0   1  1  1 | 14    8   12   11  | 16    6   11   10  | 12    6   10   10  | 13    7   11   11  |
   8   0  8  8   0  0  0   2  2  2 | 12    6   10   10  | 16    3    8    7  |  8    4    7    6  | 10    5    9    8  |
   8   0  8  8   0  0  0   3  3  3 | 10    5    9    8  | 16    0    5    4  |  4    1    3    3  |  7    3    6    6  |
                                   |                    +--------------------+--------------------+--------------------+
                                   |                    | 16    -    -    -  | 16    -    -    -  | 16    -    -    -  |
                                   |                    | 16   -2   -1   -1  | 12   -2   -2   -1  | 13   -1   -1    -  |
                                   |                    | 16   -3   -2   -3  |  8   -2   -3   -4  | 10   -1   -1   -2  |
                                   |                    | 16   -5   -4   -4  |  4   -4   -6   -5  |  7   -2   -3   -2  |

 

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Terran numbers

1 Ship 2 Weapon Terran Dreadnought - Titan) (weapon shielding) (BEAM)
                                        Version 2.0          Version 3.0        Version OFC+lead     Version OFC        
Lead Link Dice Link Dice  Damage    Final      Hits      Final      Hits      Final      Hits      Final      Hits      
Dice  Breakout  Breakout  Breakout  Dice  80%  40%  .81  Dice  80%  40%  .81  Dice  80%  40%  .81  Dice  80%  40%  .81  
  13  10  0  0   0  0  0   0  0  0 | 18   13   18   18  | 18   13   18   18  | 18   13   18   18  | 18   13   18   18  |
  13  10  0  0   0  0  0   1  0  0 | 18   13   18   18  | 18   13   18   18  | 17   12   17   17  | 18   13   18   18  |
  13  10  0  0   0  0  0   2  0  0 | 16   11   16   16  | 18   12   17   17  | 16   11   16   16  | 17   12   17   17  |
  13  10  0  0   0  0  0   3  0  0 | 16   11   16   16  | 18   12   17   17  | 15   11   15   15  | 17   12   17   17  |
  13  10  0  0   0  0  0   4  0  0 | 15   11   15   15  | 18   11   16   16  | 14   10   14   14  | 16   11   16   16  |
  13  10  0  0   0  0  0   5  0  0 | 15   11   15   15  | 18   11   16   16  | 13    9   13   13  | 16   11   16   16  |
  13  10  0  0   0  0  0   6  0  0 | 13    9   13   13  | 18   10   15   15  | 12    8   12   12  | 15   11   15   15  |
  13  10  0  0   0  0  0   7  0  0 | 13    9   13   13  | 18   10   15   15  | 11    7   11   11  | 15   11   15   15  |
  13  10  0  0   0  0  0   8  0  0 | 12    8   12   12  | 18    9   14   14  | 10    6   10   10  | 14   10   14   14  |
  13  10  0  0   0  0  0   9  0  0 | 12    8   12   12  | 18    9   14   14  |  9    6    9    9  | 14   10   14   14  |
                                   |                    +--------------------+--------------------+--------------------+
                                   |                    | 18    -    -    -  | 18    -    -    -  | 18    -    -    -  |
                                   |                    | 18    -    -    -  | 17   -1   -1   -1  | 18    -    -    -  |
                                   |                    | 18   +1   +1   +1  | 16    -    -    -  | 17   +1   +1   +1  |
                                   |                    | 18   +1   +1   +1  | 15   -1   -2   -2  | 17   +1   +1   +1  |
                                   |                    | 18    -   +1   +1  | 14   -1   -2   -2  | 16    -   +1   +1  |
                                   |                    | 18    -   +1   +1  | 13   -2   -2   -2  | 16    -   +1   +1  |
                                   |                    | 18   +1   +2   +2  | 12   -1   -1   -1  | 15   +2   +2   +2  |
                                   |                    | 18   +1   +2   +2  | 11   -2   -2   -2  | 15   +2   +2   +2  |
                                   |                    | 18   +1   +2   +2  | 10   -2   -2   -2  | 14   +2   +2   +2  |
                                   |                    | 18   +1   +2   +2  |  9   -1   -3   -3  | 14   +2   +2   +2  |
 
3 Ships 1 Weapon/each (Terran Cruiser - Teuton) (Beam)
                                        Version 2.0          Version 3.0        Version OFC+lead     Version OFC
Lead Link Dice Link Dice  Damage    Final      Hits      Final      Hits        Final      Hits      Final      Hits  
Dice  Breakout  Breakout  Breakout  Dice  80%  40%  .81  Dice  80%  40%  .81  Dice  80%  40%  .81  Dice  80%  40%  .81 
   5   0  5  5   0  0  0   0  0  0 | 10    6   10   10  | 11    7   11   11  | 11    7   11   11  | 11    7   11   11  |
   5   0  5  5   0  0  0   1  1  1 |  8    5    8    8  | 11    4    7    7  |  8    5    8    8  |  8    5    8    8  |
   5   0  5  5   0  0  0   2  2  2 |  6    3    6    6  | 11    1    3    3  |  5    3    5    5  |  5    3    5    5  |
   5   0  5  5   0  0  0   3  3  3 |  4    2    4    4  | 11    0    0    0  |  3    2    3    3  |  3    2    3    3  |
                                   |                    +--------------------+--------------------+--------------------+
                                   |                    | 11   +1   +1   +1  | 11   +1   +1   +1  | 11   +1   +1   +1  |
                                   |                    | 11   -1   -1   -1  |  8    -    -    -  |  8    -    -    -  |
                                   |                    | 11   -2   -3   -3  |  5    -   -1   -1  |  5    -   -1   -1  |
                                   |                    | 11   -2   -4   -4  |  3    -   -1   -1  |  3    -   -1   -1  |

3 Ships 1 Weapon/each (Terran Cruiser - Teuton) (Primary)
                                        Version 2.0          Version 3.0        Version OFC+lead     Version OFC
Lead Link Dice Link Dice  Damage    Final      Hits      Final      Hits        Final      Hits      Final      Hits  
Dice  Breakout  Breakout  Breakout  Dice  80%  40%  .81  Dice  80%  40%  .81  Dice  80%  40%  .81  Dice  80%  40%  .81 
   7   0  7  7   0  0  0   0  0  0 | 14    8   12   11  | 15    8   13   12  | 15    8   13   12  | 15    8   13   12  |
   7   0  7  7   0  0  0   1  1  1 | 12    6   10   10  | 15    5   10    9  | 12    6   10   10  | 12    6   10   10  |
   7   0  7  7   0  0  0   2  2  2 | 10    5    9    8  | 15    2    7    6  |  9    4    8    7  |  9    4    8    7  |
   7   0  7  7   0  0  0   3  3  3 |  8    4    7    6  | 15    0    4    3  |  6    3    5    5  |  6    3    5    5  |
                                   |                    +--------------------+--------------------+--------------------+
                                   |                    | 15    -   +1   +1  | 15    -   +1   +1  | 15    -   +1   +1  |
                                   |                    | 15   -1    -   -1  | 12    -    -    -  | 12    -    -    -  |
                                   |                    | 15   -3   -2   -2  |  9   -1   -1   -1  |  9   -1   -1   -1  |
                                   |                    | 15   -4   -3   -3  |  6   -1   -2   -1  |  6   -1   -2   -1  |

 

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8 hours ago, Spartan_FA_Mike said:

Actually, I had the python script roll the dice 1,000,000 times, in a series of combinations, say 15d6, one million times.  Or 5d6, or 2d6, or whatever, that million times.  The script is actually rolling dice and exploding the 6's, counting the hits and finding the average number of hits for whichever combination you choose.  Regardless of the number of Xd6 you throw, the average result you can expect is ~0.799 hits per die in your initial throw.

FYI, since I haven't seen it written anywhere in this thread, the average number of successes given by an exploding dice roll on 4+ is EXACTLY 0.8. A modifier of +x or -x changes that to 0.8 + 0.2*x or 0.8 - 0.2*x, respectively. I.e., if you hit on 3+ you get exactly 1 success on average.

I can explain the computation to you, if you like, or you can take my word as a PhD in mathematics. ;)

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what if instead of affecting shields kinetic weapons are at -1 to hit but each hit counted as 1 additional hit. so 5s cause 2 hits and 6s caused 3 then exploded. potentially dangerous but unwieldy weapons? a even 6AD attack would result in 4 with 1 explode and the altered would generate 5 with 1 explode.

Scatter(X): All Scatter Weapons ignore the effects of Difficult Target and Elusive Target MARS when fired at X Range Band(s). Scatter Weapons may never attempt a Targeted Strike Order. Could be used to help Sorylians in giving them multi warhead torpedoes and high explosive or flak cannister style cannons with a bit more versatility with minimum alteration to the currently planned rule.

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