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S..Mike

3rd Edition Fleet Construction

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1 minute ago, Xerkics said:

It makes the whole thing into a farce breaking any immersion that might have  existed that this is an actual real fleet imo.

Exactly. It then just becomes a game about dice and if I'm just betting on dice, why should I buy any models? 

You need a form of restriction, a guiding hand to build a proper, actual fleet for engagement otherwise, you should just bet on the outcome of who can roll the most sixes in a single hand or something. 

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10 minutes ago, LionofPerth said:

Exactly. It then just becomes a game about dice and if I'm just betting on dice, why should I buy any models? 

You need a form of restriction, a guiding hand to build a proper, actual fleet for engagement otherwise, you should just bet on the outcome of who can roll the most sixes in a single hand or something. 

Think our group might stick to 2.0 if the rules ship as shown.

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1 minute ago, Xerkics said:

Think our group might stick to 2.0 if the rules ship as shown.

 

Makes me glad I have all of the books and the stats. 

Also, most of my models are for RPG campaigns, more so than the tabletop game. 

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1 hour ago, Xerkics said:

Yes races like Aquans already have a tendency towards spamming their tier1s at bigger points  i dont think they needed any incentive to do that in small point games with the point system encouraging large capital spam. The fleet will look like 3 Battleships a unit of heavy cruisers and a unit of frigs under new point system.

A list like this especially aqauns will be really hard to Counter in V3, tried italready.

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I can see the arguments that you'll end up with 'this is the most bang for you buck - spam it' at each level 

Say Directorate gunships are THE medium unit and they come in at 150 points the pair

In a 1200 point game you bring 6 for 450 points - now the old system  capped me at 2

Lets say the Battlecruisers at 110 each are the bomb at large you bring 4 at 440 - and the old system would  have capped me at 2 

The remaining 310 you get the best little guys you can

Unfortunately having no set restrictions will result in spam list, I mean I know I just pulled numbers from my behind here, but it's a issue

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again, ill hold judgment until I see ship stats

say all the gunships now have less then steller PD, I could bring a torp heavy fleet and pop them before they get in range, not that will be the case, but every ship has its week points, if its all you bring, you can be punished for it (and will be once your opponent figures you out :) )

but again, with percentages, they still need all tiers of ship, they just get to choose which classes of ship they take.

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Oh well. It probably will work just fine. I was hoping for better than just fine though. 

I really don't like percentages, it is not easy to eyeball a fleet and evaluate if it matches the percentage restrictions. 

Obviously no rules changes would please everyone. I just hope it pleases enough people. 

I was hoping to see a refined and expanded version of the Taskforce Hex System. 

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You know, to me the tiered system seemed to produce the same fleets over and over.   And it was, because a Patrol fleet had to have 1 battleship, 1 or 2 cruisers, and some frigates.  Got to feel quite repetitive.  This new system seems like it would allow for more experimentation.  It probably also helps that we're not uber competitive here either.   With the guys I've played with, none of them know much about how a navy is supposed to work...it is about moving ships, going 'pew pew pew' and rolling lots of dice.   We're just having fun playing a game, y'know?

I guess I could go either way (tier or %).  But I like the freedom of action that the % system offers.

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15 minutes ago, WestAustralian said:

I really don't like percentages, it is not easy to eyeball a fleet and evaluate if it matches the percentage restrictions. 

I thought the same initially, I looked at it, and thought "ugh, now I have to tally percentage every time I add an upgrade, and compare that too what I have to determine if I can take..."

but it's actually easier then it looks, take the total points your fleet contains, for simplicity say 1000

10-60% must be large

10-60% medium

10-40% small

this means 100-600 points for large

                   100-600 medium

                    100-400 small

calculate the percentages first then hit your minimums with the squads you want, and flesh out the rest without exceeding the cap

so for a 1200 point fleet

120-720 large

120-720 medium

120-480 small

 

it really won't be as complicated as I originally though, especially with how wide those margins are :D 

 

 

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So @Polaris when I set out my 850 point fleet in front of you how easy is it for you to mentally check my compliance to percentages. Dreadnought yes/no. Did I bring enough Frigates etc. 

sure I can calculate out mine to an arbitrary percentage rather than ship limitation charts. But it's harder for me to check my opponent.

 

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Ah I see your point, knowing the fleet points per category, you would need to check that they met minimum, and didn't exceed maximum.

we always checked overall points anyway to make sure points weren't exceeded, but now you need three different minimum/maximum point value checks. one for each tier to ensure they meet the parameters

Fair point :huh:

hopefully not too much trouble

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35 minutes ago, WestAustralian said:

So @Polaris when I set out my 850 point fleet in front of you how easy is it for you to mentally check my compliance to percentages. Dreadnought yes/no. Did I bring enough Frigates etc. 

sure I can calculate out mine to an arbitrary percentage rather than ship limitation charts. But it's harder for me to check my opponent.

 

Well, you still have to have a fleet list, right?  The points are printed on the cards.  But it is not the same as just checking off sizes/classes., that is true.

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I'm not sure about this system so far, but I am willing to give it a shot.
It will change up the usual meta I have seen in games where it is a pyramid style fleet where the battleship is  at the top and the frigates are the base.

You could change the point percentages a bit, I've been playing for a while now but I've only really ever done 600pts, and only once 800pts. I prefer small games, And they worked in V2.0 because when it came to the Super large vessels like Dreadnoughts, my opponent couldn't take one and neither could I.

The percentage idea will be a little bit annoying to work out, but only because it is so different to the current way to fleet build. I only hope that with this in mind, when the new fleet manuals for the Kurak Alliance and Zenian League are released that there will be already pre-made fleet lists compilied in them and ready to go to assist new players into the game.

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% is no better than tiers with min max

 

tiers are easier to limits

@1000 minimum one of each tiers

@1500 minimum of one tier 1&2 but 2 tier 3

@2000 minimum of one tier 1, 2 tier 2, 3 tier 3

Allow factional variation of maximum of each type of classes 

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7 hours ago, Spartan Neil said:

Hi Guys,

Some good debate taking place here. Just to follow up on alextroy's post above this. You are correct, the balance side of % needs to be well thought about, as it does with a Tier system. There is certainly enough passion surrounding this subject that it needs more scrutiny. And if it means we go back to the v2.0 Tier system because enough of the player base feel this is best for the game moving forward, we will certainly look at that as well. I have areas I want to move forwards with in 3.0, and Fleet Building % was one of my changes, but as alextroy points out... it has to work. Numbers may need changing, and we will certainly keep going with the debate and I am confident with your input we will get it right.

Thank you all for the input.

Neil

 

Why not post a poll to gauge interest in either system?

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Though I liked your suggestion Bessemer, I'd really like to see some of the "converted" stats on ships before voting.  I doubt it would change my opinion, but in my happy place where everything is balanced appropriately I'd be good with %'s.  I don't expect that, but I'd still like some confirmation first.

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Ignoring balance and calculating point etc. the biggest loss I see is that there is now less opportunity to tailor the personality of fleets. One faction might have more Destroyer slots in their T2s than they have Heavy Cruisers because their character is an ambusher, another might have loads of Assault Carriers but few slots for Gun Ships etc.

The reasoning for this seems to be that because the Ryushi list allows a Gunship at patrol level...but there isn't a Gunship model! Which is...well...that's Spartan's production problem not mine. Things like 'Ryushi bring Gunships at small engagements while almost no one else does' is personality and character given to a faction. I don't want that kind of thing gone. I want the background, faction write ups, etc. to draw attention to this. It;s a little quirk that gives another little window to connect story and mechanics together.

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My problem with the percentage system is not really the required check for each the fleet, as in a friendly game it doesn't have a significant importance, and in a tournament environment the TO can make their (and the player's) job rather easy with a fleet list format requirement.
My problem is with the fact, that the problem with the old system it addresses doesn't really exist. If there are problems with my logic, please correct me, I want to be wrong, I really do.
The percentage system (in theory) will increase fleet diversity, as the restrictions of the tier system vanish, and you can experiment to your heart's content. Except you will try to create the optimal fleet, and if there are choices that are more points effective or just plainly superior than others, players will gravitate towards those choices, and this will increase the bland, spammy list's viability and chance of appearance.
You know... like

BKJlUP4.gif to 200.gif

Of course there will be limits to this by the model selection of the given player, but Spartan is said to address this by increasing the availability of its squadrons in blister format. Of course the individual squadrons can be rebalanced to become more in line with other choices, but to be honest, I'll allow myself a level of healthy scepticism here, and look back to the frequency the company released faqs and rebalanced the fleet manuals. It does happen from time to time, and when it does, it really addresses problems, but the last two fleet manual updates had two years in between if I remember correctly (2014 apr - 2016 apr). Also the ever increasing number of the already impressive ship profiles is... not easy to handle.
The game had probably outgrown the tier system in its current form, but it was reducing the amount of spam, helped diversity between races, so rather than scrapping it, I would probably revise it, improve it, and add exciting features to it (like certain ship slots filled unlocking abilities, increasing the number of tiers to handle the issue with the disproportionate BL loss for carriers and battlecruisers). I have a feeling it created a balanced fleet construction that we'll appreciate only after it's gone.

 

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One of the key elements of the original Tier system was enforced mins/max in each Tier. This meant that no matter what you brought along there was almost guaranteed to be something suitable for it to fight so each squadron you brought would be able to attack and damage an enemy in a suitable way. 

I.e.: If I brought some T3s (who aren't Sorylian) they can usually effectively fight enemy T3s and T2s, if at near full strength they can harm T1s...just about.

Great, means my ships are all usefully contributing because my opponent also has a few T3s and t2s for them to fight.

However, imagine they take the 10% minimum T3s, spend 60% on T1s and the remaining 30% on T2s. My more mixed fleet with 30% T3s will only need my opponent to put a few kills on each squadron to cripple their ability to hurt them in return. 2-3 T3s linking fire on a battleship? Not great odds of doing anything and just being more targets to get shot up for Battle Log so...best option is probably to blow up their single T3 squadron and then fold space out my T3s. Great...next game I'd probably not bring 30% of them again, too rapidly they can be left with no good targets by a savvy opponent just shooting a few from each squadron.

Edit: you could probably retain this feature by increasing the number of squadrons from each tier you must take as the game size increases.

1 T1, 1T2, 1T3

1T1, 1T2, 2T3

1T1, 2T2, 2T3

 

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On 7/29/2017 at 10:45 PM, Xireon said:

How about racial restrictions in the ORBAT's, where you limit certain more powerful  squadrons/ship types to a specific number? So actually a combo of v2 and v3, where you do away with the tier system, but keep the fleet composition limits.

That will give you an extra method to balance races and fleets at certain points levels, and it directy ties into the fluff. Also, if you have a list stating you are only allowed 1 squadron of ship x, and 2 squadrons of ship y for a given point bandwith, it should not be hard to interpret/understand at all.

Of course, you will need to add a provision for Very Large Fleets, like the v2 grand armadas.

Quoting myself in order to add to the discussion...

From what I have seen, the biggest issue people have with the % system as opposed to the tier system, is the possibility of unbalanced lists full of no-brainer power units. The alternative I suggested would alleviate that issue at least, and it would allow to keep the thematic of the different races by limiting/unlimiting certain units. How would people feel about something like this?

Note that I am not part of the design- or the beta team, so no punches below the waist please :)

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2 hours ago, Small Mek said:

The percentage system (in theory) will increase fleet diversity, as the restrictions of the tier system vanish, and you can experiment to your heart's content. Except you will try to create the optimal fleet, and if there are choices that are more points effective or just plainly superior than others, players will gravitate towards those choices, and this will increase the bland, spammy list's viability and chance of appearance.

Yes, but doesn't this happen in the tiered system as well?  I mean, if I only have 1 battleship I can bring in, I'm going to look for the 'optimum' choice, whatever that means.  Same goes for the tier-2 and tier 3.  The min/max player will always go for those 'best' options, regardless of the system.   With the % system that you can tweak the ratios easier.  If 60% is allowing too much battleship to show up on the board, then perhaps 45% tones it down enough.

As for diversity/character of the fleets...okay, I can accept that argument.  I don't think it lent that much 'character' to a fleet, but here we're talking tomato/tomatoe.

Neither system is perfect.  Some prefer %, others the tier.  Someone above me in the org chart will have to decide which is best to use.

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