Grand-Stone Posted July 24, 2017 Report Share Posted July 24, 2017 I just realized that the new CAP rules now helps blocks rockets... That adds 5AA to a ship. Stops rockets preaty badly. Guess the first thing we need to do is send in a wave of our own fighters to strip that CAP away from key targets. (or better, leave a wing with 1 token if the enemy has carriers) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Nobody Posted July 24, 2017 Report Share Posted July 24, 2017 Well the EotBS main attack is rockets so this is of no surprise. Said it a hundred times, I play the EotBS for the models. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand-Stone Posted July 25, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 Clearly these things have to be taken into account when making the new ORBATS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sleeping_squirrel Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 Let´s hope. In my opinion 2.5 rules were (re)written by somebody, who did not play DW actively in the last year or two and was not aware what those "small" changes will do in other parts of the rules. 24 minutes ago, Grand-Stone said: Clearly these things have to be taken into account when making the new ORBATS Upping numbers to rockets is bad idea. What about fleets fielded withou carrier? And small points games without significant local air support? This would only make carriers really really mandatory in all games. Which is not bad in general but I like diversity. 11 hours ago, Grand-Stone said: I just realized that the new CAP rules now helps blocks rockets... That adds 5AA to a ship. Stops rockets preaty badly. Guess the first thing we need to do is send in a wave of our own fighters to strip that CAP away from key targets. (or better, leave a wing with 1 token if the enemy has carriers) Good thing is that we will see CAP more often than in 2.0 :-) (but I do not like that part "or better, leave a wing with 1 token if the enemy has carriers" :-( which is very unfortunate consequence of the current rules). Question: if CAP that powerful right now, would not be escorts even more obsolete than before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand-Stone Posted July 25, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 I was more thinking of ensuring the overall balance of our nation. I don't mind CAP being more powerful, just don't want it to strongly influence how effective we are. Yeay, part of the carrier rules are very stupid. And especially stupid in a carrier fleet versus another carrier fleet. I hope the designers realize this problem and finds a solution. I'm espicially worried about carrier versus carrier fleets. Imagine this fleet: 4 Tenkei 600pt 2 heavy bombers 240pt 5 Obü 125pt 4 frigates 120 versus a similar fleet... Luckily, only local air suport can be used as CAP, and cap cannot be effected by carrier actions. Which is a big limitation of CAP! And also means you can kill it of by your own fighters preaty easily. Escort do have some firepower in addition and gives you CC in addition to AA. But AA is so much more important than CC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phant Mastik Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 11 minutes ago, Grand-Stone said: ... ... and cap cannot be effected by carrier actions. ... I would say they can! CAPs are restricted to beeing fighters from Local Air Support and thus can't be re-tasked or re-built. Re-arm doesn't make sense, since they are fighters but I think I can replenish them via a carrier. The explicit restriction that carrier actions may not be targeted on CAPs vanished in 2.5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nazduruk_Bugzappa Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 Also note, the Suzaku (and a few other) heavy bombers have special rules that allow them to take the planes they bring with them as CAP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asuo Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 Having a SAW assigned as CAP reduces the enemy activations numbers, so it's a two edged sword, EOTBS have some of the better fighters in the game so throw a wave at it to remove them before engaging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand-Stone Posted July 25, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 27 minutes ago, Asuo said: Having a SAW assigned as CAP reduces the enemy activations numbers, so it's a two edged sword, EOTBS have some of the better fighters in the game so throw a wave at it to remove them before engaging. Good point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand-Stone Posted July 25, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 What it will mean though, is that we find other targets for our rockets the first few turns Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Nobody Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 I wonder how many other nations need to make major negative changes to their tactics due to a rule change? Wish we could change our rockets to more guns, call them rocket guns or something. Wait, wasn't the Toyokawa getting rocket guns? and to impossible to sink, not with 7 HP and 11 CR she ain't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elessar Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 14 minutes ago, Lord Nobody said: I wonder how many other nations need to make major negative changes to their tactics due to a rule change? Wish we could change our rockets to more guns, call them rocket guns or something. Wait, wasn't the Toyokawa getting rocket guns? and to impossible to sink, not with 7 HP and 11 CR she ain't. I think this is overstating it a bit. Even if something has a CAP, just split rockets into 2 salvos. Each is a little less powerful, but they can only AA one effectively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Nobody Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 Isn't that forgoing a crit hit for maybe 2 DR hits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elessar Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 Depends what you fire with and at, of course - but if they have 8+ AA thanks to a CAP, then you aren't getting a CR either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nazduruk_Bugzappa Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 45 minutes ago, Lord Nobody said: Isn't that forgoing a crit hit for maybe 2 DR hits. If the rockets are incendiary, I'd split my rockets for the certainty of the extra fires, and one of the volleys getting past AA Elessar 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand-Stone Posted July 26, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2017 8 hours ago, Lord Nobody said: I wonder how many other nations need to make major negative changes to their tactics due to a rule change? Wish we could change our rockets to more guns, call them rocket guns or something. Wait, wasn't the Toyokawa getting rocket guns? and to impossible to sink, not with 7 HP and 11 CR she ain't. The 11 Cr was an error. It's supposed to be 12. @Spartan Mike confirmed that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erloas Posted July 26, 2017 Report Share Posted July 26, 2017 16 hours ago, Lord Nobody said: I wonder how many other nations need to make major negative changes to their tactics due to a rule change? Wish we could change our rockets to more guns, call them rocket guns or something. I think that assessment is a bit premature. How many games have you actually played where all of your primary targets are protected by CAP? How many fleet builds are going to want to give up all of their local air support for CAP instead of using it for offensive roles? Also while it is true most of our units have rockets, it is also true that almost all of them also have turrets and/or torpedoes as well. Rockets might be the most powerful weapon at RB4 for most of our fleet but its pretty even at RB3 and rockets are on the lower end at RB2, and the majority of combat happens at less than RB4. When you consider that CAP can only be on large/massive models and most of those aren't going to be primary targets at RB4, as the rockets AD isn't going to be enough even before AA, I see it as a much larger theoretical change than an actual practical change. Elessar 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elessar Posted July 26, 2017 Report Share Posted July 26, 2017 At RB4 I would basically never ever fire on the likes of a Dreadnought, which is among the most likely CAP'd units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Nobody Posted July 26, 2017 Report Share Posted July 26, 2017 Sooo it a good thing capitals now have fighter cap for rockets when they did not before? The only good thing is it affects FSA units with rockets too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elessar Posted July 27, 2017 Report Share Posted July 27, 2017 9 hours ago, Lord Nobody said: Sooo it a good thing capitals now have fighter cap for rockets when they did not before? The only good thing is it affects FSA units with rockets too! It's a good thing for anyone who is learning the game, as they will learn to neutralise things they can remove from the board rather than potentially damaging things they couldn't realistically have killed anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand-Stone Posted July 27, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 27, 2017 For the game, it might be. For EoBS power: obviously not. But, by weakening rockets slightly, it does allow for other fanzy things without increasing price that much. I'm interested in the hints @Spartan Mike has given about fire for example. However, what it does mean is that any large with cap will not be fired upon by our rockets until cap is gone. Typical in my games, small & mediums die first then large last. Partly because large are better protected, partly because small & medium go forward faster... Leading to 'kill all large' being by far the most difficult. This change will not help in that regret. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elessar Posted July 27, 2017 Report Share Posted July 27, 2017 Agreed - but if their SAS are Fighters, then they aren't out stopping your Dive Bombers - and if you get Kill All Larges against a CAP-heavy force, swap to 70%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand-Stone Posted July 27, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 27, 2017 24 minutes ago, Elessar said: Agreed - but if their SAS are Fighters, then they aren't out stopping your Dive Bombers - and if you get Kill All Larges against a CAP-heavy force, swap to 70%. You got a big point. If we meet an enemy with no carriers and all cap, we can safely use all our own local air support aggressively. 1500 points, and wiht only 1 tenkei we can: First send in a wave of fighters to get rid of their CAP on one enemy, then follow with 4 waves of dive bombers... Elessar 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erloas Posted July 27, 2017 Report Share Posted July 27, 2017 With the most common games seeming to be in the 1000-1250 range that is only two local air support units, which is at most two units with CAP. Elessar 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elessar Posted July 27, 2017 Report Share Posted July 27, 2017 3 hours ago, Erloas said: With the most common games seeming to be in the 1000-1250 range that is only two local air support units, which is at most two units with CAP. 3 hours ago, Erloas said: With the most common games seeming to be in the 1000-1250 range that is only two local air support units, which is at most two units with CAP. Indeed, although some also get to retask a Squadron Support SAS - but this tends to be below 5 anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
