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Area Bombardment

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Area bombardment is fairly clear. The hight band issues are irrelevant as it specificly states that only surface hight is effected. The biggest question, which maybe arrises, is wether hunter applies? (are there any examples of this?)

 

No the Nagatsu would NOT be an effective counter to these. At RB1 the nagatzu can muster 8 die torpedo attack, which hit on 6+, since these tiny subs are submerged AND elusive. Which means, as stated earlier, has less than 40% probability to kill 1, and the probability further decreases due to enemy CC.  Yes you could include some linked broadside into the mix if you are lucky. So maybe it can take out 1. But still, that is very ineffecitve. The Sue migh be slightly better as you can send 2 volleys of 10 dice each at RB 2. But still, if you look at the point cost added into 4 Sue's, and getting to kill maybe 10pt worth of enemies is not cost effective.

If you have nothing better to do ofcourse, you can always try to hit them with rockets or primary guns at RB4 and hope for the best...

I want to have access to some area attack weapons, or some cost effective way to take them out. Hunter(submerged) with torpedoes on our light cruisers or something might also do the trick. If I want to counter that threat by adding a special ship to my list, I should be able to do so. And it doesn't come for free, as I then have to add the spesific unit just to counter that specific threat.

 

This being said, for the EoBS maybe the new sub-hunter 'Tengu' will be effective.  Depends on its stats and how it is build. Depends on it's bombs and rockets and Mar's fore these.

 

 

 

 

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20 minutes ago, Grand-Stone said:

Area bombardment is fairly clear. The hight band issues are irrelevant as it specificly states that only surface hight is effected. The biggest question, which maybe arrises, is wether hunter applies? (are there any examples of this?)

 

No the Nagatsu would NOT be an effective counter to these. At RB1 the nagatzu can muster 8 die torpedo attack, which hit on 6+, since these tiny subs are submerged AND elusive. Which means, as stated earlier, has less than 40% probability to kill 1, and the probability further decreases due to enemy CC.  Yes you could include some linked broadside into the mix if you are lucky. So maybe it can take out 1. But still, that is very ineffecitve. The Sue migh be slightly better as you can send 2 volleys of 10 dice each at RB 2. But still, if you look at the point cost added into 4 Sue's, and getting to kill maybe 10pt worth of enemies is not cost effective.

If you have nothing better to do ofcourse, you can always try to hit them with rockets or primary guns at RB4 and hope for the best...

I want to have access to some area attack weapons, or some cost effective way to take them out. Hunter(submerged) with torpedoes on our light cruisers or something might also do the trick. If I want to counter that threat by adding a special ship to my list, I should be able to do so. And it doesn't come for free, as I then have to add the spesific unit just to counter that specific threat.

 

This being said, for the EoBS maybe the new sub-hunter 'Tengu' will be effective.  Depends on its stats and how it is build. Depends on it's bombs and rockets and Mar's fore these.

 

 

 

 

Well you are going to love the Tengu then G-S.  Hunter (Submerged) is stamped all over the weapon systems (along with another surprise as well)...

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4 hours ago, Erloas said:

I think that is the whole point.  A good part of their defense comes from being low priority targets.  I think "they should be easier to kill because I don't want to have to deal with them" kind of misses the point.  If you have something that is likely to fall to them then you had better spend the firepower to take some of them out, otherwise you toss whatever extra weapons you might have that can target them and hope to get lucky.

That is just the sort of tactical choice that makes games more interesting.

 

Well at EotBS you have plenty of torpedoes.  Nakatsu and Sui would be very effective counters as neither are capital and they have enough AD in their torpedoes, and enough models in the squadron, to be a huge thread.

Although I would also point out that your only options for area bombardment are bomb bays, and area bombardment is an option, not a requirement.  So you can just as easily use your bombs for concentrated bombing instead.  To hit numbers are going to be high since they're capital models and could be at several different heights.  DFA-170 at normal height would have a good chance of killing them but very vulnerable in the process.

 

I can't think of any real situations where positive modifiers are going to come in.  Target painter only works on a specific weapon, I can't think of any that work for an area bombardment, but if they do then it would have to be by specific design.  The only other option is Hunter and that is also a specific weapon system, so if they want it to work with indiscriminate attacks or not is clearly a case-by-case basis handled in the ORBATs.  Suzaku in the EotBS does have hunter (bomb bay) and area bombardment (bomb bays), so they've clearly designed that to get positive modifiers to an indiscriminate attack.

The only instances that I see positive modifiers coming into play is with heavy bombers, fortifications and if the target has a low speed maneuver marker.  I know some of the heavy bombers have area bombardment and hunter surface (bomb bays).  This means that you can drop bombs at stratospheric height band and hit any surface target on a 4, 5, or red 6 while ignoring defensive mars and generators.  If you are targeting a fortification or a model with a low speed maneuver marker then it would be 3, 4, 5, or red 6.

Obviously you would be using the small template and the random direction so you won't always be able to hit everything you want to.  I have never actually done this so I don't know how effective it would actually be.  I do want to try it and actually see if it is worth it.  Probably not enough dice to hit large ships, but could be useful against small or medium squadrons.  

Let me know if you have tried this and how it worked.

 

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3 hours ago, Grand-Stone said:

Area bombardment is fairly clear. The hight band issues are irrelevant as it specificly states that only surface hight is effected. The biggest question, which maybe arrises, is wether hunter applies? (are there any examples of this?)

I haven't looked through everything, just until I found the first example:  Halifax KoB Heavy Bomber has Area Bombardment, and Hunter (surface&submerged, bombs, +1).  Clearly the hunter submerged would only come into play with concentrated bombing since area bombardment doesn't hit submerged.  I would think that if hunter didn't apply to area bombardment it would be explicitly stated.  They use the exact same terminology and wording for the "to-hit" for area bombardment and all other cases, including the base description.  So it would stand to reason that hunter effects the base "to-hit" value of area bombardment the same way it does other to-hits.

 

3 hours ago, Grand-Stone said:

No the Nagatsu would NOT be an effective counter to these. At RB1 the nagatzu can muster 8 die torpedo attack, which hit on 6+, since these tiny subs are submerged AND elusive. Which means, as stated earlier, has less than 40% probability to kill 1, and the probability further decreases due to enemy CC.  Yes you could include some linked broadside into the mix if you are lucky. So maybe it can take out 1. But still, that is very ineffecitve. The Sue migh be slightly better as you can send 2 volleys of 10 dice each at RB 2. But still, if you look at the point cost added into 4 Sue's, and getting to kill maybe 10pt worth of enemies is not cost effective.

You're right, I missed Elusive Target, I was thinking Difficult and Small which are only from Capital.

Although 8 AD torpedoes has an average of 3.2, so more likely than not to get 4 successes (and its 4, because your options are either 2 or 4 since we're hitting on 6s).  As such, the defensive counter only does something if they hit 6, as 5 just cancels 1, which is still 3.  But it is only 1 cc since we've got Faster Torpedoes.

But when it all comes down to it you're not going to take a unit of Sui or Nakatsu just to take out Turtles.  You've either keep them back to specifically defend against the turtles, which means you know they are a bigger threat than their points would indicate, or your Sui/Nakatusu are waiting for their opportunity to strike a bigger threat.  The Sui also have enough CC to be a threat to them with torpedoes and CC once you get into RB1.

 

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I guess then we could ask @Spartan Mike what the intension of the rules are :) 

 

Ahh, yes. Forgot about faster torpedoes. That helps. With 4AA getting 2 hits is not that unlikely. With 1, it only blocks 1/6 of a time. Thus bringing the total probability to kill one turtule with 8 torpedo AD down to approx a third. Sure the SUI has enough CC to be some threat to one turtle. It can ditch out two times 12 torpedeos (linking 2 and 2) and total linked CC of 8. 12 torpedoes has approximately 50/50 of killing, and 8CC is down to 0.4 probability to kill. Averrage outcome, between 1 and 2. Definitively not a counter to turtles.

Mines would work like wonders on them though. Hitting them all on 4,5 and 6. If you could detonate one of them while the turtles are within reach.

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1 hour ago, Nazduruk_Bugzappa said:

How are the torpedoes from the EoBS ships being made "ineffective" by CC?

With one or two exceptions, they have the Faster Torpedoes MAR, and a tiny model doesn't usually have more than 1CC.

It isn't the CC, it is just that a submerged elusive and difficult target is going to take luck or a lot of AD since almost everything is hitting on 6s.  When we're looking at the least amount of power to take them out we're only looking at matching DR or at best beating it by 1, in which case a single CC could make a difference.

 

It seems like Torpedo bombers are probably the best way to go.  Given 5 is overkill, but we're likely to see more small groups out now with the different carriers.  2-3 torpedo bombers should be enough to reliably take out a turtle a turn. 

It is granted that some nations have a lot more options to deal with them than other nations do.

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Hunter doesn't apply to area bombardment, simply because you don't target a model; You chose an initial aiming point (page 130). Hunter specifically states that it applies to a target model (page 161). This is the same reason that you don't have a aggressive counterattack against area bombardment.

On the topic of how to kill tiny models: just use pot shots, often they aren't that much of a threat (especially with the new boarding rules). If you get lucky and kill one and get a disorder on them the squadron is useless. If you have an offensive generator (fury, tesla, sonic) you can easily cripple a tiny squadron.

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Sonic will effect one out of 6 models. If you are lucky. Fury might destroy 1 next turn. Tesla give one random effect on one model which doesn't really help. They are difficult to destroy, and are a threat to anything with low AA or bad luck, even with reduced numbers.  Which is fine. I just wish there were a few more option of dealing with them.

Mines will crush them,  particle accelerator the same. But with those exception, I cannot find many effective counters.

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Right, really off topic here, but lets look at your average boarding statistics:

Assuming you fire a single torpedo salvo that kills one Turtle (since we dont actually have stats for anything that isnt one of these yet), youre now faced with 5 AP, each with Terror Tactics (1).

Jumping on an Aristotle which has taken, say, 3 damage, this means you're up against 3 AA. Of which an average roll will kill 1 (closer to 2, but lets round down) AP. So you're throwing 4+4 Reckless boarders at an Aristotle, which has 6 Elite defenders. On an average roll, 8 Reckless will hit an average of 8. 6 Elite will hit an average of 7.2. So both sides are wiped out, and as a result the Aristotle takes a Sabotage. That's it. Even IF you landed with every single Turtle, the Aristotle would still wipe all of them out. And this is probably the weakest Large to boarders in the game right now.

 

Now, if they decide to jump onto a Cruiser, you'll be up against more AA (generally, barring extremely heavy damage to the squadron) and less AP, of which AA is generally more effective in this situation due to it taking out 2 AP per hit.

Your best bet with these subs is either to finish off a ship that has already been boarded or is so down in the dumps after Hard Poundings that it's got nothing to shoot your boarders with. Battlecruisers are probably also juicy targets, due to lower AP and AA values. As it is, they're being paid for by the Boston, so if you wipe the Boston, well, there's most of your points back.

 

That being said, getting a Magazine Explosion on a small sub is still like... 2 dice at 4+. Might kill one if you're lucky.

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Collision are great against tiny submarines:

All Models involved in a Collision use their respective
Impact Ratings (IR) to generate the amount of Attack
Dice used to roll against the other Model.
Any Collision uses the Exploding Dice mechanic
and requires a 4, 5 or (RED) 6 ‘To Hit’, unless a
specific condition or MAR applies. Collisions are
Indiscriminate Attacks. A Model involved in a
Collision suffers Damage as normal. See the Damage
Section on Page 111 for more information.

 

The same goes for ram, but with some extra stash. This is an indiscriminate attack, but which can be effected by MARs. Which leads back to the original question. Clearly indiscriminate attacks CAN be effected by MARS. But what are those? Any example?

 

You cannot collide with a submerged model, but you can ram it. There used to be a sentence where it stated that you cannot have more than one ram per activation. But I cannot find it any more. Those this mean I can ram them all in one go? Then that is great news. That means I just have to field my own submarine and ram them all. Yes they can evade, but 3 dice hitting on 4,5 or 6, on every single one of those :D

 

 

 

 

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@jupjupy Nice writeup.

The new boarding rules makes them far less scary than they used to be. Still, in your example, the do wipe out all your AP, which is not insignificant. It's just that in my experience the turtles have an unhealthy those of damn luck in addition :D

 

I'm not saying they are overpowered, just that they personally irritate me and I'm searching for tools to take them out. I think I have found one way now. Depending on wether you can ram more than one target or not.

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Specifically for the EotBS I had forgot about the fact that they did give mines to Ika and Chita, so that is an easy way to handle them now.  If they would just give them aquatic assault then we could do that too... At very least give the Zarigani aquatic assault, wouldn't be much of a threat to anything big, but would be a good way to take out those pesky little ships.

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6 hours ago, Erloas said:

Specifically for the EotBS I had forgot about the fact that they did give mines to Ika and Chita, so that is an easy way to handle them now.  If they would just give them aquatic assault then we could do that too... At very least give the Zarigani aquatic assault, wouldn't be much of a threat to anything big, but would be a good way to take out those pesky little ships.

I suspect the squidbots will have their own special rules for underwater boarding. Currently, rules as written, you have to surface if you want to board a submerged model.

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14 hours ago, Grand-Stone said:

Collision are great against tiny submarines:

All Models involved in a Collision use their respective
Impact Ratings (IR) to generate the amount of Attack
Dice used to roll against the other Model.
Any Collision uses the Exploding Dice mechanic
and requires a 4, 5 or (RED) 6 ‘To Hit’, unless a
specific condition or MAR applies. Collisions are
Indiscriminate Attacks. A Model involved in a
Collision suffers Damage as normal. See the Damage
Section on Page 111 for more information.

 

The same goes for ram, but with some extra stash. This is an indiscriminate attack, but which can be effected by MARs. Which leads back to the original question. Clearly indiscriminate attacks CAN be effected by MARS. But what are those? Any example?

Doesn't the Ice Maiden have Hullbreaker (Ram)?

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On 7/26/2017 at 4:41 PM, Nazduruk_Bugzappa said:

I suspect the squidbots will have their own special rules for underwater boarding. Currently, rules as written, you have to surface if you want to board a submerged model.

Please elaborate. The examples use this case, but , like CC attacks from one submerged squadron to another. it doesn't say you can't

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1 hour ago, CDR_G said:

Please elaborate. The examples use this case, but , like CC attacks from one submerged squadron to another. it doesn't say you can't

The MAR's description specifically states only two conditions for its application (submerged boarding surface, and surface boarding submerged). The main rules themselves prevent submerged from boarding submerged, and there are currently no specific rules, or MARs, to allow for it either

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