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Area Bombardment

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At page 100 the rulebook sais:

 The ‘To Hit’ Number for Indiscriminate Attacks
Most sources of Indiscriminate Attacks will specify
the ‘To Hit’ Number they use. If they do not, they
use the Basic ‘To-Hit’ Number as determined by the
Height Level - see the table on Page 127.

At page 130 the rulebook sais:

Area Bombardment is considered to be an
Indiscriminate Attack, with a ‘To Hit’ Number
of 5 or (RED) 6, and may only ever Target the
Surface Height Level.

Does it mean the you always need a 5 or (RED) 6 to hit regarless the height level you are? So, yo need a 5 or (RED) 6 to hit even if you are at stratosferic height level?

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6 hours ago, Nazduruk_Bugzappa said:

In 2.5, indiscriminate attacks can be affected by height, target painters, etc

Area Bombardment from stratospheric height would be blue6 to hit, as it is "7 or more to hit" (see p67)

I think Indiscriminate is still unaffected by any to hit modifier, it says nowhere that it is affected. It is less clear than in previous versions though, a clarification would be nice.

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15 hours ago, Nazduruk_Bugzappa said:

In 2.5, indiscriminate attacks can be affected by height, target painters, etc

Area Bombardment from stratospheric height would be blue6 to hit, as it is "7 or more to hit" (see p67)

Indiscriminate attacks would be affected, though I don't think you could use something like a target painter or cloud generator.  But it would be affected by height bands for sure.

But Area Bombardment has its own set of to-hit numbers and those wouldn't change. 

All Area Bombardment attacks are indiscriminate but not all indiscriminate attacks are Area Bombardment, so it is easily possible for different sets of rules to apply.

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1 hour ago, Erloas said:

Indiscriminate attacks would be affected, though I don't think you could use something like a target painter or cloud generator.  But it would be affected by height bands for sure.

But Area Bombardment has its own set of to-hit numbers and those wouldn't change. 

All Area Bombardment attacks are indiscriminate but not all indiscriminate attacks are Area Bombardment, so it is easily possible for different sets of rules to apply.

That's what I think, because in both rules of area bombardment and stratosferic height level, don't talk about any modifier, but a "To hit" Number; so they don't stack.

Anyway, thanks for the reply to everybody, but is it possible to get an official answer beyond players opinions? :rolleyes:

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Just now, Grand-Stone said:

Ok, then I have one issue... There are a few tiny submarines with 2AP each... What is the counter to such units???

I don't see the relation with the main question, but, anyway: torpedoes, Conentrated bombing, CC, primary weapons...

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None of the ways you decribes is an effective counter, as it still requiers a full payload of one weapon system to maybe take out 1 out of many. I thought area bombardment was the only way to take them out... But now I learn area bombardment don't effect submerged units, that is a big blow.

 

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Concentrated bombing still works perfectly fine, you just aren't going to want to do it from Stratospheric.  Even with elusive/difficult target most bombs have enough AD to have a very good chance of taking them out.  Yes you aren't going to take out a whole group with one shot but they would be useless if you could.  Take out a few with bombing and CC, AA will take out a few more AP coming in.  They are going to be dangerous still but they are hardly instant wins.

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Maybe we are running out of the original question, but we are having a nice discussion.

 

Yes, but that is the kind of resources you spend on killing mediums or damaging BB.  And most probable you are better of using those attacks on different things. But that then leaves us with the chilling result that there are few weapons worth spending on them. If a squadron of 3 could strike 3 times and have good hopes of killing 2 of them, that would be a different story. But spending 15AD to strike one of them... not worth it.

A volley of 3 times 4 or 5AD torpedoes striking at 5+ or better might be a far better deal.

I just think there should be developed spesific weapon against this spesific threat. Thats all :D 

A mine definitively is such a tool :D If you could exploit it.

CC should obviously be exploited if within reach. But that could also be difficult as CC is effected by to-hit modiferes, and thus hit on only 6 for all ships? (or am I mistaken there???)

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Wait... no tiny submarine has 2 AP, what are you talking about? Only the Australians get "2 AP" when they stack their Terror Tactics (1) on them.

Regardless, even if they did (which would be borderline overpowered depending on average squad size), the easiest way to plink them down considering they are 10 point models with 3DR is to use frigates and light cruisers. Their weapons are weak but throw out just enough dice (even when halved) to get 3 hits on 5+ without overkilling. Once you take out 3 or so the squadron is heavily neutered, and your CC fire should kill a number of their boarders as they come in.

If you are Covenant, wave lurk your battleships and use the Particle Accelerator. None of them should survive.

 

Back to the original question, as far as I can tell from the rulebook, both Area Bombardment (and really, most indiscriminate attacks) use a "To-Hit" number. As Height Bands also use this number, and weapon to-hits supersede height band to-hits, it would be logical that an area bombardment would not be affected by being in, say, stratospheric. I mean, after all, you're just randomly dropping bombs on whatever the heck is below you, regardless of whether you're 1000 meters or 5000 meters in the air.

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Jupjupy: 1AP ad terror tactis (1). So AA is luckily fairly effective. But the only problem is that they are not hit on 5+, they are elusive and submerged, and most guns are halfed firepower. Thus they are hit on 6+, and you need two 6'es to destroy 1. Which means that even a linked torpedo attack with 8 dice still has a only a 40% probability (if we neglect CC) to kill 1 (see useful statistic on this forum). If you add a total of 4 linked CC, it is even lower. And that is using torpedoes which does have a bonus versus submarines.

While surfaced, then light cruisers and frigates is a good tool to hunt them down, hitting on 5+. Even better, ramming, or colliding with them all on purpose. As you can only ram 1 ship at a time (or atleast used to). But they don't surface BEFORE they attack. Surface tiny ships are far less problematic, as area bombardment, light cruiser and frigates can effectively stop them.

The ones that can dive need specialized weapons to be worth attacking.

Particle Accelerator would kill them like butter.

The immunity to most area bombardment is a bit frustrating as it means there are for me (I mostly play EoBS) no effective counters against  them.

 

 

But the original question: I thought the entire point of indiscriminate attacks was that they had a fixe "to-hit" number, and thus good versus 'Difficult targets'.

 

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The same might be said for my own small submerged robot, the Zarigani. It is also very hard to take out. But then, they are atleast a 30pt unit, and not a 10pt unit which you get for free by another adding another unit.

 

Then maybe the new robot 'Tengu' might have some effective weapons against these :)

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26 minutes ago, Grand-Stone said:

 I thought the entire point of indiscriminate attacks was that they had a fixe "to-hit" number, and thus good versus 'Difficult targets'.

 

This interpretation makes most sense to me. The area effect suggests blanketing an area with ordnance, like carpet bombing, so hard to see why modifiers for size or height would make any difference. 

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1 hour ago, Nazduruk_Bugzappa said:

According to p100, unless the weapon has a specific "to hit" number, the weapon is affected by height levels. They also have no restrictions on +/- modifiers (eg Target Painters). The only things they ignore are Defensive Generators, and Defensive MARs.

Yes, of course, but as an Indiscriminate Attack has the following ruling on page 100:

"Most sources of Indiscriminate Attacks will specify the ‘To Hit’ Number they use. If they do not, they use the Basic ‘To-Hit’ Number as determined by the Height Level - see the table on Page 127."

And Area Bombardment does have a 'To-Hit' number as on page 130: 

"Area Bombardment is considered to be an Indiscriminate Attack, with a ‘To Hit’ Number of 5 or (RED) 6, and may only ever Target the Surface Height Level."

Hence Area Bombardment ignores the Height Level's Basic 'To-Hit' Number. As for +/- modifiers, there is no precise ruling in the book, as such is open to interpretation.

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Indiscriminate attacks specify that they ignore defensive mars and defensive generators.  Difficult target, elusive target, and small specifiy they are only against targeted attacks.  Indiscriminate attacks are not targeted attacks therefore they are ignored as well.  Area bombardment specifies it always hits on  a 5 or red 6 so it ignores the height band.  I think indiscriminate attacks should ignore positive modifiers to hit, but it does not say that.  

With all the rules that are not clearly explained it is best to decide with your opponent how you will handle them before the game starts.

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On 7/22/2017 at 2:42 PM, Grand-Stone said:

Yes, but that is the kind of resources you spend on killing mediums or damaging BB.  And most probable you are better of using those attacks on different things. But that then leaves us with the chilling result that there are few weapons worth spending on them. If a squadron of 3 could strike 3 times and have good hopes of killing 2 of them, that would be a different story. But spending 15AD to strike one of them... not worth it.

I think that is the whole point.  A good part of their defense comes from being low priority targets.  I think "they should be easier to kill because I don't want to have to deal with them" kind of misses the point.  If you have something that is likely to fall to them then you had better spend the firepower to take some of them out, otherwise you toss whatever extra weapons you might have that can target them and hope to get lucky.

That is just the sort of tactical choice that makes games more interesting.

 

On 7/23/2017 at 1:29 AM, Grand-Stone said:

The immunity to most area bombardment is a bit frustrating as it means there are for me (I mostly play EoBS) no effective counters against  them.

Well at EotBS you have plenty of torpedoes.  Nakatsu and Sui would be very effective counters as neither are capital and they have enough AD in their torpedoes, and enough models in the squadron, to be a huge thread.

Although I would also point out that your only options for area bombardment are bomb bays, and area bombardment is an option, not a requirement.  So you can just as easily use your bombs for concentrated bombing instead.  To hit numbers are going to be high since they're capital models and could be at several different heights.  DFA-170 at normal height would have a good chance of killing them but very vulnerable in the process.

 

On 7/23/2017 at 7:38 AM, Jsiegel1983 said:

Indiscriminate attacks specify that they ignore defensive mars and defensive generators.  Difficult target, elusive target, and small specifiy they are only against targeted attacks.  Indiscriminate attacks are not targeted attacks therefore they are ignored as well.  Area bombardment specifies it always hits on  a 5 or red 6 so it ignores the height band.  I think indiscriminate attacks should ignore positive modifiers to hit, but it does not say that.  

With all the rules that are not clearly explained it is best to decide with your opponent how you will handle them before the game starts.

I can't think of any real situations where positive modifiers are going to come in.  Target painter only works on a specific weapon, I can't think of any that work for an area bombardment, but if they do then it would have to be by specific design.  The only other option is Hunter and that is also a specific weapon system, so if they want it to work with indiscriminate attacks or not is clearly a case-by-case basis handled in the ORBATs.  Suzaku in the EotBS does have hunter (bomb bay) and area bombardment (bomb bays), so they've clearly designed that to get positive modifiers to an indiscriminate attack.

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