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FSAHoops

The hopes and dreams for a federated states...

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20 minutes ago, Spartan Mike said:

@AurikonLol sub carrier for KoB? They are not evil folks! But I can think of some that are... :)

Yes lots of dreaming going on here! ... BUT Lots of dreams seem to be rooted in sound reality yet though!  

Keep the mill churning. I am always watching and digesting! ;) 

-Mike

@Spartan Mike, I never said that was evil.  Closer to evil would be a KoB monitor with one of the windsor guns

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Should've specified whether this topic was hypothetical new units, or new variations/changes to current units.  @Spartan Mike you stated on the retired unit topic that the Lexington was getting a model casting redo.  Was this to bring the ship into design scheme that matches the 2.5 units (Miss, Providence, Calico)?

If so, now I post my dream update: Mk 4 Lexington minus generator/rocket drop on and torpedo turret instead of primary turret.  Add Georgetown Mk 4 with similar setup but with target painter submerged generator(due to increased Hull and power plant) and attachment (FSA, Lexington, 1) MAR.

Now the new unit, which I believe I posted on another (I believe @FSAHoops admiral backer) topic.  An FSA support cruiser, about Annapolis size medium unit with external Guardian generator and combat coordinator (FSA, Sustained Fire, Aux, 1) and minimum one volley turret.  Make said unit with attachment MAR, squad size 1, an done.

Would like to see more FSA units drop turtles.

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I apologise @Elessar, but I meant the Georgetown gets similar setup as Lexington.  As is replace primary turret with torpedo turret, lose all generator and rocket drop options for a target painter generator, and gain the attachment MAR.  So a squad of three Lexington's and one Georgetown would only have the one TP gen, four torpedo turrets, and no rockets.

@Spartan Mike, now I'm confused, cause I only had one yes-or-no question, and you said yes to both.

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7 hours ago, hyde1352 said:

Should've specified whether this topic was hypothetical new units, or new variations/changes to current units.  @Spartan Mike you stated on the retired unit topic that the Lexington was getting a model casting redo.  Was this to bring the ship into design scheme that matches the 2.5 units (Miss, Providence, Calico)?

If so, now I post my dream update: Mk 4 Lexington minus generator/rocket drop on and torpedo turret instead of primary turret.  Add Georgetown Mk 4 with similar setup but with target painter submerged generator(due to increased Hull and power plant) and attachment (FSA, Lexington, 1) MAR.

Now the new unit, which I believe I posted on another (I believe @FSAHoops admiral backer) topic.  An FSA support cruiser, about Annapolis size medium unit with external Guardian generator and combat coordinator (FSA, Sustained Fire, Aux, 1) and minimum one volley turret.  Make said unit with attachment MAR, squad size 1, an done.

Would like to see more FSA units drop turtles.

Hyperthetical units or tweaks to existing units... either way!

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6 hours ago, hyde1352 said:

I apologise @Elessar, but I meant the Georgetown gets similar setup as Lexington.  As is replace primary turret with torpedo turret, lose all generator and rocket drop options for a target painter generator, and gain the attachment MAR.  So a squad of three Lexington's and one Georgetown would only have the one TP gen, four torpedo turrets, and no rockets.

@Spartan Mike, now I'm confused, cause I only had one yes-or-no question, and you said yes to both.

Got it! That would work pretty well for me - not sure if it would crowbar into all my fleets, but would for sure own to ensure I had the option!

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I think the Independence should be reclassified as a Heavy Battlecruiser, its pretty much filling that role anyhow. A bit of points reduction and giver her volleygun broadsides.

I too would like to see a true Gunship that can gun the ship out of things. Maybe a torpedo variant of the corvette ? And yes a speed buff for the Avions and the Valley. The Valley is a beast and great for boarding, but way too slow, maybe a kinetic ginny?

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the Gustav has rb1-4 broadside Tesla torpedoes it gets to re-roll 2 die on its AB which is quite good.  may be its just due to my opponent targeting it very early and crippling it made it feel weak in comparison as the Prov has a major blind spot that the Gustav doesn't have

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I played the FSA naval and air game since the very first days of DW. A couple of things were mentioned since the first days on multiple occasions and never changed through the whole time:

1.) The FSA needs diversity when it comes to large and medium navals. New units like the Providence, Calico and Boston help. The problem is with the 'standard' units / the backbone of the fleets. They define how the FSA is played. They all fill the same role with stats correlated to their costs (from top to bottom):

  • Enterprise
  • Liberty
  • Mississippi MK1
  • Indy
  • Anapolis
  • Princeton
  • Georgetown
  • Lexington

In comparison the Liberty is rendered redundant by the MK1 Mississippi (I believe because there is money to be earned, like with many new models). 40 pt difference for 1 hp, 1 AP and 1 AD when linked. IR is quite unimportant for a ship sitting back in RB3 carrying your commodore (games to 1250 pts). This will surely make the Liberty a shelfsitter. As FSA you need the punch of either Enterprise or Mi MK1 to hit the enemy in RBs 3 and 4. This synergises well with the FSA doctrine.

That said we need differentiation. We need the different heavy hitterS, the tank/brawler, and the support. There are interesting options at hand which could add to the FSA flavour: Support focus: Combat coordinator [sharpshooters / rockets / bombards (since there are large, medium and small bombards in the FSA orbat)], Sonic Gen, other Gens (Target Painters, ..); Heavy Hitter focus: Sustained Fire all the way, but how about differentitation with a bombard vessel (i know, i know the Providence, but maybe add a "closer" range bombard platform like the Liberty or Independence could be).; Brawler focus: DR (its an FSA thing), sharpshooters (FSA is THE sharpshotter faction), shields, hp, AP, Sonic Gen option.

2.) And please please please work on shelfsitters. This would make SG a company different from other table top fabricants. For the FSA there is:

  • Freedom robot --> I mean... what? What does it do? What is it good for? Nothing maybe? waayyy to expensive for filling no role.
  • Washington --> on land: ****, on water: ultra ****; the stats speak for themselves and need no further explanation; I could see a very iconic role as a well balanced support vessel, since it looks American like a burger sitting on a bald eagle flying through the Grand Canyon voting for free fire arms.
  • Lexington mk3 is useless. 5 pt for 1 AD shield and losing rockets. Nope, i will not go down the road of using very bad units.
  • A17 with mv 8" this thing is too slow for being a bomber. the torps are the only ones in the FSA orbat, but there also SAW and bombs for dealing with underwatery stuff.
  • PYB-2 is a unit sitting stratospheric shooting on other air with rockets which get countered by high AA from air units with high AA. This is a weak role and not competitive at all. Make rockets great or add something to the unit. Btw, John henry's fill a similar role but upscaled in points, AD and especially MV 360°.
  • Avion Strike Bomber is quite tough but is easly ignored since it does not enough damage. When the enemy has to handle these things they get very interesting which they are not at the moment. Maybe a sinergy with something in the fleet?
  • Animas. Please compare the Anima with the Valiant (KoB). The Valiant does the job way better. 2-5 squad with DR4 / CR5, more CC and torps. Why should we use a vessel which is just worse than an older existing model.

3.) Balancing and blurring factional differences

During the years it became very visible that certain factions cannot be played in competitive mode. The FSA is one of them. There seem to be major balancing issues in DW which for many of us is a huge problem in regards to fun playing this very game. CoA, France (the ONE list), BW and PE seem or seemed to be the power houses of DW. Just look at the new stuff. Brandtaucher is just better than anything diving in this game with the exception of the deathbringer maybe. Prussia gets just everything from piercing to corrosive. Rugged construction got ridiculous in terms of statistics. If I would be a Russia player I would burn my ships. The general trend I see with SG is earning money without looking back at balancing or any other detail of the game. Please recognise this huge problem and get to it. Releasing new things is very nice but only if the overall system works in terms of gameplay. The rest is very nice ;)

I dont believe that balancing or caring about balancing or putting flavor in factions in terms of rules is a topic at SG anymore. However I would love to see my belief is wrong. Cheers!

 

 

 

 

 

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I been with Spartan from the beginning. I would disagree with them not caring about balancing forces. No one in the gaming industry cares more. I think your points are valid.  It's not easy to balance so many different units in DW world. I guaranty that they will forward these points on to the play testers. 

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14 hours ago, tank0625 said:

I been with Spartan from the beginning. I would disagree with them not caring about balancing forces. No one in the gaming industry cares more. I think your points are valid.  It's not easy to balance so many different units in DW world. I guaranty that they will forward these points on to the play testers. 

Thank you.

I would partly disagree on the difficulties of balancing and that SG cares more than anyone for balancing. I think they do not anymore. My point is that with the release of DW 2.0 there was a serious strife for a nice and balanced system. After 2.0 and with the release of other game formats I could not see the same energy put into DW. Sure, new boxes were released and the idea of the kickstarter emerged, however the new stuff did not fit into the elaborate system of 2.0. New is now always better (example: the new battleships). And this reminds me of ..well.. other game formats. But this is the FSA thread and I will stick to the topic of diversifying and balancing the FSA. -_-

Sure balancing is tough in its overall process from paper to the table top. However, if there are very noticeable differences through orbats on paper already, you need to check them even before play testing them. There are some very obvious 'must-take' and some very obvious 'never-played' units. My experience - and I would also speak for some of my fellow players - shows that these statistics do not surprise on the table top. A never-played unit does not suprise fitting in a role we did not see or anything else. It is just a bad unit on paper and a bad one on the table top. The whole thing reversed means that there are some really bad-ass units which are no-brainers.
I would even say there are some very obvious must-take factions when it comes down to winning distinctly more often (now with energy blasts, teleportation and ridiculous Rb1 particle accelerators, with PE devastating, piercing, aquatic boarding (which seems to be a typical australo-prussian thing??) and PE ablative which is better than ablative even more so). I cannot see why this is not a topic. Why there are no questions about specific factions being played in tournaments and others never played on these occasions.

 

12 hours ago, Nazduruk_Bugzappa said:

I'd also disagree with a few of those "shelf sitters" that you have listed. The PYB2 makes an excellent attachment to the B72, and the Avion bombers are comparable to most of the strike bombers, plus have the advantage of being low level flyers.

The Avion is a fitting example. On paper it lacks damage output. On the table top this is exactly the case. If you take strike bombers to bomb something but it lacks damage, robusticy is not an advantage because they wont get shot at. There is no danger radiating from a squad of Avions. However, if you take a strike bomber with a distinctly higher output, people will try to shoot at it to stop them taking out strategically important targets. And all you want with your strike bomber is people trying to take them down. Other small flyers with the same cost are just insanely better (on paper and in the game). Merlins (I know its not a bomber) for example are fast, versatile and a real danger for the opposing fleet.

I hope to be constructive here :rolleyes:.

Cheers!

 

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@from32"withlove I've gotta admit, I like the way you've detailed everything here. You haven't done what seems to be more common place with alarming regularity on the forums: you haven't just moaned! You've put constructive and detailed criticism, but you've also touched on how to start working on improvements. Bravo sir! I agree that the independence has become a shelf sitter these days. I'm shocked that I never realised that the main boats are basically points scaled versions of each other, it made me look at my friends Russian Coalition and I whole heartedly agree. I haven't had a chance to test a few of the units myself, because I don't own them or because of time constraints. But I'll certainly be looking closer at a lot of things now.

@Spartan Mike if there are any posts to read from this thread, I'd wholeheartedly ask you to look at these ones closer

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54 minutes ago, FSAHoops said:

I was gonna take my KoB tomorrow against my RC friend, but I might take my FSA instead, really look at the synergy whilst writing my list.

Heya :),

I would recommend:

Naval:
Mississippi MK1 / Enterprise (depends on points)
Boston + 6x Turtle
2x Annapolis (+ shields)
2x5 Reveres

Air:
Savannah
Remaining points can go to escorts / upgrades or maybe a third BC (since they are a no-brainer).

This is a pretty solid, almost competitive FSA list, which includes all the FSA has to offer (except for sharpshooters, because right now its pretty weak).
Your commodore ship (MK1 or Enterprise) sits back and screens 1 Annapolis. The other Annapolis sits on a flank granting maximum line of sights for long range engagements (careful when engaging other long rangers (COA and stuff)). Boston and Turtles in the centre. 1 Squad Reveres as reserve, the other squad screened (island / large naval). The savannah is also sitting in the centre being your flying centre of brawling.

Tactics: Let them come. Be patient. Shoot em up and board incoming / damaged vessels. With 2 squad Reveres and Turtles you can board anything large. Dont shy away from boarding mediums if it helps to get the points. Deny paths with SAW (against mediums or maybe larges) and the Savannah (bomb smalls). Go strat with your Savannah and enjoy its no-brainer toughness. Use it aggressively with providing fire support from RB3. Shields / Gens --> Boston them. The Boston is pretty solid in RB3. Risk the damage if you need the node. Use turtles to area deny or try to soak fire with them. Many people fear them. Try to use the Revere 17" MV. This makes them really really dangerous. For example: End of round 1 -> 17" straight ahead towards a target. Win the activation for round 2 -> 17" ahead and board. This is an extremely long range of boarding threat and your opponent will hate you for it, which is a sign of good strategy :rolleyes:

This is includes the FSA essentials. Moderate boarding threat combined with 1-3 hits in Rb3-4. This means the FSA wears its enemy down in all ranges. Jack of all trades. Master to none. Sustained fire helps to get the hits you need when the enemy has you in his/her sweet spot. For KoB this means you need dmg in rb 3-4 when you'll be reached in rb2.

The above mentioned only includes just the best FSA units. The rest needs a lot of work to fit into a competitive game :wacko:

Cheers and good luck!

 

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