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Grand-Stone

An commander from EoBS comes to a visit.

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After studing the rules for the Prussian army in more detail, I come to the conclution that they are far more tricker than they might seem at first glance. I have never played with them or against them. And my thoughts of them have changed. I've been reading my forums, and everybody says Prussian is a boarding oriented nation. Frigates with 2AP each is nice. Maybe so, but not as straight forward as I first thought.


I am a commander for the EoBS and I have come to visit and study a few of your ships. (I'm going to go over all the ships I'm recieving)

First, a few general notes.

Tesla weapons: yes they kill 1 ap if you bypass DR. And there are lots of them in the prussian army. Which is nice. But it's far from all firepower that has this ability, and the ones that do have it have slightly low AD. What struck me though is two things, first they are redoubtable. A nice boost. Keeps a 6AD gun from becoming irrelevant too fast.

Then you have the combination with speerschleuder. All tesla weapons then have devestating mutation. In terms of average, thats is almost similar to adding hitting on 3+ instead of 4+. But it also do another thing, increase the varriation of the roll. Now a lucky roll does far more damage. Thus a 6AD weapon is far more dangerous, as it's far more likely to hit at 10 or above.  The effect of it is not only adding a probability of doing far more damage than it ought to be, but the adding fear! Devestating on low AD weapons, a mastery move.

And spperschleuder & tesla generators seems nasty... Rolling twice on the focused critical table... ads a lot of hurt to an enemy....

First the ice maiden. At first glance, it seems obviously overpowered. It has 0.4HP/10pt, which is similar hp per cost as a light battleship. She (cuz it is a she) has a DR of 10, and a CR of 16, on top of that she has 10 AA. Clearly an insane protection. Which admitetly, fits her nicely. In addition she has the firepower of a dreadnaught (3 tesla guns, tesla broadsides and a faust tesla stirke), and 15 carrier points on top of that. 15... However, there is one thing about this ship, which makes it difficult to judge her before trying her in combat... She can hardly manoever. It's such a small detail, easy to skip... And she is always the first thing to enter the table... One hell of a beast which I cannot judge before trying her.

So extremly well on protection, fine on firepower but extremely low in manoeverability. During her 5'' movement segment, she can use the large turning template ONCE! Thus, you have a very good assesment on where she is going many turns ahead. May be easy to avoid her main guns.


The next ship I look at is the Gustav...
Protection wise, only average, or actually below average. Most BB have 6/10 + some bonus. The gustav has 5/8 and admittetly, a nice rugged(2), but in my view thats not enough to compensate for poor stats. And only 7HP, which is the low end of large. Only 5AA but,... Specialized defense is nice though.

However, the Gustavs firepower seems on paper to be preaty decent. Especially in RB4. And it is a low cost BB. Only 155pts. Tesle weapons only a distraction... Unless speerschleuder ofcourse.

 


Konigsberg:
I haven't played with battlecruisers before, but they are all about firepower. Even though they are a medium with useually slightly better protection than regular mediums, they are much more expensive.

Let's compare the Konigsberg to the EoBS battlecruiser. In protection the EoBS wins. The konigsberg have ruged construction, but the EoBS has +1 in CR and shield. However the Königsberg have one tiny and one decent bonus. It has +1 AA and specialised defences.


Main guns:
The EoBS can link broadside with guns with the following profile:
21/17/13/6 and causes fire and is a secondery weapon system.
The Königsberg have
17/14/9/5 is primary.

The EoBS has a much better main weapon system. Far better firepower and caues fire. However, the Königsberg have one huge edge. The EoBS is fixed channels broadside based, while the Konigsberg fire 270^o forward. Much much easier to exploints the Königsbergs weapons. Using broadsides may also hamper your position for next round. While the Königsberg is super easy to use. Move forward, fire.

Additional weapon system:
The EoBS has 9/8/-/- faster torpedoes. Fixed channels forward.

The Königsberg has
9/8//7 of the beautiful heavy speershleuder.
And having a speershleuder in your army seems very helpful. Which is on it's own far better then the EoBS torpedoes. The torpedoes don't degrade at all, but the speershleuder is redoubtable. And it kills troops. AND it aids all further activity on an enemy as earlier mentioned. However, 7 die is not guaranteed to bypass Dr 6+ shield of most enemy BB. But still...

A broadside with some tiny firepower and an aft tesla coil, which probabily will not be used that much. The broadside isn't that difficult to use, but it's firepower is very low. But better than nothing.

Last, The Königsberg have tesla generator. Which makes it fater than the Mizuchi and adds a punch if you end up within 8'' of an enemy. Especially if combined with sppershleuder. All in all, the two ships seems to be similarly power. The EoBS have better protection versus guns and a very nasty broadside+guns system. The Königsberg have Heavy speershleuder & tesla generator.


Brandertaur:
This is an realy interesting ship...

Protection wise... as a sub it obviously have good protection while submerged. But while on surface, it's weak. Only 1AA is low. Extremely low. Notice, it's not capital so it doesn't have rugged construction. The problem, with a RB4 weapon which is decent, you do want to surface with this sub...

Interestingly it has evasive manoevers, so it can dive back after attacking at 4+. The problem, if you have 3 of them, it's the one that fail it's roll which will be targeted. Which definitively weakens this ability a lot. However it's a nice bonus.

Guns: it's firebrand gun seems like a nice one. Lethal and causing 1 fire is a nice combo. Hunter surface increases it's firepower to. However, I want to notice one big thing about this ship. It's not capital. Thus it hits small at 3+. And 4 firepower at 3+ versus regular frigates, isn't that bad at all. And also notice, if you bypass DR and not the Cr, there is still a 50/50 probability that the frigate (having 1AP which is now dead) will die from fire. In addition, if you are lucky enough to enforce a moral failure, it's nice to have eliminated some AP on the way, maybe forcing it to take HP damage instead.


In addition, this ship has 5 elites AP each, and suprisingly, aquatic assault. Now this may actually come in handy when you are in reach of the enemy. This means that when you are boarding, you can forgo firing, and do a boarding action instead, and counter boarding whill be very difficult. And better protection from fire at the same time. Nice tweak there.

But, still, you pay 225 pt for 15AP and a 12/12/8/8 hunter(surface +1), leathal firestarter... Seems a bit naaaaa right? It cost 225 pts. Compare that to the EoBS light cruiser (which is critized for beeing low power), which have almost the same boarding potential, -/6/8/10AD rockets at torpedoes at RB 1 & 2 and 3x 8 broadsides at RB1. And cost 155pt... If you play the sub as a regular surface ship... There must be more to it. Lucky for you, it is.

There is one thing I have overseen. Each of these have a tesla generator. Tesla generator adds a bit of speed. Makes it from slow to normal. But, if you are within reach of an enemy, each of that tesla may opt to damage an opponent. If you are so lucky to have inflicted a lightning-rod onto them, they will get 2 rolls on the focused crittical table. And, as far as I can read, there is nothing which says that you cannot use the tesla generators while under water? (or am I misstaken?)

So, for this ship, the Tesla generator may be an important part of this ship!!!
If some luck, some inflicted lightningrod generators, man that may be a nasty round. Assuming lucky, and most optimal... I rolled 6 die, two on three different ships: 1st ship with shreded defenses & weapon damage, 2nd ship:  shreded defenses & chaos and dissaray and the 3rd ship: enigine fauilure & chaos. Yeay, given, they all have to be within 8'' of all three ships... But still, preaty nasty.

In addition it has the mines, which I have no experience with, so difficult for me to see how important that is.

It's an tricky thing. It is submarine, and do have some benefit from it, but... you don't want to have ship staying around doing nothing. At point blank range though, it may dive... Especially if there are no rules forcing you to surface to use the tesla generator...


Lahn: destroyers which causes lightning rods persistent effect. Enough said. Thats their role. linked firepower: 18/16/13/- enough to hit anything, even at RB3.

 

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4 hours ago, Grand-Stone said:

But, still, you pay 225 pt for 15AP and a 12/12/8/8 hunter(surface +1), leathal firestarter... Seems a bit naaaaa right? It cost 225 pts. Compare that to the EoBS light cruiser (which is critized for beeing low power), which have almost the same boarding potential, -/6/8/10AD rockets at torpedoes at RB 1 & 2 and 3x 8 broadsides at RB1. And cost 155pt... If you play the sub as a regular surface ship... There must be more to it. Lucky for you, it is.

Not anymore they don't! When you assault a single target, you only have one assault group* of (3+3+3) = 9 Regular AP + 2 from Terror Tactics. The Brandtaucher will have (5+5+5) = 15 Elite AP, which is defended against by CC instead of AA and that tends to be slightly lower on a lot of interesting targets. The Empire of the Blazing Sun uses a lot of Terror Tactics, and the change in how boarding groups are formed hurts them quite a bit.

*Reference: DW 2.5 Rulebook, p. 145.

"A Model may only ever create one Assault Group in the Phase and it must comprise of at least 1 AP. If a Squadron has a number of Assault Groups from different Models targeting the same enemy Model, combine these together into one single Assault Group at this point."
 

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53 minutes ago, Farcages said:

Not anymore they don't! When you assault a single target, you only have one assault group* of (3+3+3) = 9 Regular AP + 2 from Terror Tactics. The Brandtaucher will have (5+5+5) = 15 Elite AP, which is defended against by CC instead of AA and that tends to be slightly lower on a lot of interesting targets. The Empire of the Blazing Sun uses a lot of Terror Tactics, and the change in how boarding groups are formed hurts them quite a bit.

*Reference: DW 2.5 Rulebook, p. 145.

"A Model may only ever create one Assault Group in the Phase and it must comprise of at least 1 AP. If a Squadron has a number of Assault Groups from different Models targeting the same enemy Model, combine these together into one single Assault Group at this point."
 

Somehow I highly doubt that terror tactics intentionally got so nerfed. And I see no reason why it should be. Here is what the MAR says:

 

"If this Model successfully places Assault Points on
board an enemy Model during the Close Quarters
Battle Step of an Aggressive Boarding Action, their
Assault Group generates additional Attack Dice (AD)
up to the Value listed in parenthesis."

I'm preaty sure that the intention of this MAR is for terror tactics don't stack! If this model places assault points, you increase the attack dice. If another model does the same, increase it again.

@Spartan Mike whats your take?

 

Edit: and comparint this to sustained fire where it says

"55. Sustained Fire (Weapon, Value)
Coherency MAR: If this Model makes an Attack
using the Weapon listed in parenthesis, it can re-roll
any initial Attack Dice (AD) up to the value listed
in parenthesis. The second roll must be accepted.
Multiple instances of Sustained Fire in a Squadron
do not have a cumulative effect to the Attack Dice
(AD) totals used in any single Attack."

 

In sustained fire it explicitly states that it does not stack. Thus I assume they do stack in Terror Tactics.

 

That being said, my arguments still holds, the EoBS light cruiser which had 15 AD, was not by any means considered an overpowered ship in 2.0. The elite is a bonus though, but would you pay 60pts for elites only?

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That being said, I'm actually not against such a rule that terror tactics don't stack. It could actually be a huge benefit to the EoBS tactics. But then orbats needs to follow, cuz most ships with the old terror tactics as part of their balance have to be rebalanced.

 

But, it could be a real fun new rule. For example, if we gave the EoBS light cruiser. Earlier it could mount 15 men given that all ships contributet atleast 1AP. Back then, terror tactics stacked.

 

But now, it doesn't. But that gives us an oportunity. Now the EoBS light cruiser could gain

4AP +terror tactics (3).

In current rules, with terror tactis not stacking, that would also give 15AP as previous. Nothing changed? Nope. Cuz now a single EoBS light cruiser would have 7 die... And, it would actually be a far more tempting to board three independent medium models.

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Oh our Konigsberg ia kinda subpar.  I prefer the gustav over it.  As for the new subs,  their role isnt to board,  but rather to harrass. They are both a boarding and ranged threat and capable of providing the Prussians tje much needed rb3-4 firepower.  When they get close to an unguarded ship,  watch as the enemy screams in horror as your angry Prussians jump out of their subs and tear their crew to shreds 

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Yes, the Gustav seems very nice. Good firepoewer, low cost.  And this ships seems to transfrom the Prussians. It's no longer a boarding only. It do have some nice RB4 firepower.

 

Yes, the new sub, their role isn't to board. It has a very decent gun with RB4 firepower. But you cannot only use it as such, cuz it's a tad expensive for that role alone. It's not a pure boarder either, cuz there are other ships with far more AP per cost. However, if tesla generators could be operated under water, that seems like a very nice bonus once you reach RB1. Seems like a ship where it's role is far from obvious. Eager to see how you use it.

 

@Spartan Mike  you need to update you example :D to for example: 3 ships with each 3ap+terror tactics (2) could role up to 15 AD. (subtract dice for AA casualties as normal)

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47 minutes ago, Spartan Josh said:

Terror tactics do stack. So A squadron of 3 ships with Terror Tactics (1) could land 12AP of Marines on their boarding target.

Josh

Apologies, seems I got it wrong here. My Blazing Sun's quite happy about this!

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11 minutes ago, Farcages said:

Apologies, seems I got it wrong here. My Blazing Sun's quite happy about this!

The only "grey area" now, is because the AP are pooled together, the old tactic of concentrating anti-boarding fire on one or two ships, in order to reduce/remove the extra TT attack dice, is no longer applicable.

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1 hour ago, Farcages said:

Apologies, seems I got it wrong here. My Blazing Sun's quite happy about this!

Nothing to apologies for. It's always nice to get things sorted out. By the way I've never played a DW game jet and played everything correctly :D

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1 hour ago, Farcages said:

Apologies, seems I got it wrong here. My Blazing Sun's quite happy about this!

Nothing to apologies for. It's always nice to get things sorted out. By the way I've never played a DW game jet and played everything correctly :D

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8 hours ago, Zahariel said:

Oh our Konigsberg ia kinda subpar.  I prefer the gustav over it.  As for the new subs,  their role isnt to board,  but rather to harrass. They are both a boarding and ranged threat and capable of providing the Prussians tje much needed rb3-4 firepower.  When they get close to an unguarded ship,  watch as the enemy screams in horror as your angry Prussians jump out of their subs and tear their crew to shreds 

My Battle Cry is the cries of my enemies as they are electrocuted to death. 

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But one thing to note.  PE forces tend to be harder to play with for the beginners.  Reason Is that for PE,  timing is crucial. Striking or engaging too fast will cost you the game and you need to know when it is essential to sacrifice your own units. 

Knowing your enemy is part of attaining victory,  but knowing your own units is much much crucial.  Prussian units tend to be capable of performing multiple rolea,  but You got to keep a good head above your shoulder and knw when to use the unit to perform a certain action. 

Eg: while uhlans are a great boarding threat,  sometimes hanging back and shelling your opponents from rb2,  forcing them to deal with them Is better than taking out a medium squadron via boarding, as this buys you time for your arminus squad and other units to get in position to perform lethal blows to a particular core enemy ship. 

 

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6 minutes ago, Zahariel said:

But one thing to note.  PE forces tend to be harder to play with for the beginners.  Reason Is that for PE,  timing is crucial. Striking or engaging too fast will cost you the game and you need to know when it is essential to sacrifice your own units. 

Knowing your enemy is part of attaining victory,  but knowing your own units is much much crucial.  Prussian units tend to be capable of performing multiple rolea,  but You got to keep a good head above your shoulder and knw when to use the unit to perform a certain action. 

Eg: while uhlans are a great boarding threat,  sometimes hanging back and shelling your opponents from rb2,  forcing them to deal with them Is better than taking out a medium squadron via boarding, as this buys you time for your arminus squad and other units to get in position to perform lethal blows to a particular core enemy ship. 

 

#Truth

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