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Firestorm Armada 3.0 Designer Feedback Thread

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7 minutes ago, Xerkics said:

Once Again I Ask . What form exactly did you beta test take ? Because you have rules changes here that are incomprehensible there. You can just tell us that you didnt have a beta test and im sure everyone will be happy to delay the release of final rules so we can test things properly. I think its better to come out clean and admit it rather than release the rules untested. Because i can tell 100% that you didnt have anyone involved in the test who ever played Relthoza with your cloak and shunt changes.

This, a thousand times this.

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Hi All,

Mike will have the rulebook at GenCon and will be able to run through 3,0 with folk who want to chat to him and roll some dice. The rules general release is coming, but my idea right now is to run some blogs delving into the 'why' I changed things and discuss the mechanics and why some things have changed, been added or removed. I've just asked for some 3.0 battle reports which we can prepare digitally to share with folk, so that we can share the key mechanics. I want to get feedback before I hit print on the book.

The task beyond that is to pull as much game play feedback as we can from you kind folk with respect to the model statistics. There are changes and they will ripple through the statistics. The use of a living set of statistics needs to be bedded in a more structured way for the community. Something like:

  • Release the Stats - gamers play and look and feedback via the forum. Emphasis on play here.
  • Fix any glaring typo errors or, to be blunt, dumb stuff
  • Plan a timeline for a 3 or 6 month review, and likely roll with that. We can collate gamer feedback that can be quantified beyond anecdotal or speculation without game play. I think 6 monthly. Set the dates in the calendar, both for a feedback delivery and the delivery by Spartan of updated PDFs for download.
  • Keep rolling with the review. Stats are never going to please anyone and we need to find balance.

August is about getting a Planetfall PDF to folk to run through so we can get that game settled.  FA 3.0 will follow it, but like I say I want to get the blogs up for all gamers to digest.

All the best,

Neil

 

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Relthoza. We had a long conversation the just other day about them and Shunts and Cloaks and I made my feelings felt on things, and changes have been made based on that. We are listening and we are evaluating as we push on with the statistics. Things evolve and we set baselines of how things work in order to get to the point where we could test if they did. If we got it less than perfect we will look at change.

I concur that my push on changes with the Relthoza may not have been ideal, and I'll tell you now that we will sort the Relthoza out.

Cheers,
Neil

 

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49 minutes ago, Spartan Neil said:

Relthoza. We had a long conversation the just other day about them and Shunts and Cloaks and I made my feelings felt on things, and changes have been made based on that. We are listening and we are evaluating as we push on with the statistics. Things evolve and we set baselines of how things work in order to get to the point where we could test if they did. If we got it less than perfect we will look at change.

I concur that my push on changes with the Relthoza may not have been ideal, and I'll tell you now that we will sort the Relthoza out.

Cheers,
Neil

 

Any chance you could provide any detail on the changes that have been made in some of the posts on the subject?

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Did the original designer of armada leave the company? as v3 is almost a completely new game closer to taskforce (a game DOA) and planetfall which is falling apart.

Why did you not just alter the movement and SRS rules for V2 and get feedback as they would have received a rather positive reception and at least helped you company's image for the time.

New edition does not mean remake a game into a lesser version by removing staple faction identities and core weapons and mars.

mines into area terrain? why not just move mineing units to have the mine field mar? why remove retractable plating? It was the main request sorylian players wanted ADDED to their fleet. Why add focused fire into the game. One of the main problems in Planet Fall. Command Orders have not been balanced in Planet Fall yet and you are going to try to force them into armada? Broken is broken do not put broken mechanics into a game until it is fixed and ready.

you should have simply shipped this as V2.5 with the movement and SRS fixes. Giving you plenty of time to continue butchering things for later.

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1 hour ago, Spartan Neil said:

Oh,

And to be clear....I really don't like tokens! :

Neil

 

That's one thing yes. But @Spartan Neil, please imagine yourself in the place of players the players invested in (based on the information we currently have available, in alphabetical order, and please forgive me if I have left something out):

Aquans: mines removed

Ba'kash: Retractable plating removed, mines removed

Corsairs: retractable plating removed, fun customization (remove something to gain something) removed

Directorate: they have everything, so everything affects them

Kedorian: battleshunt became a maneuvre that kills crew (or costs points to use every time)

Relthoza: cloaks currently are a non-choice, battleshunt became a maneuvre that kills crew (or costs points to use every time), mines removed

Tarkarian: Gravity weapons became a worse version of cyberwarfare

Veydreth: ambush removed, mines removed

Some of these are cornerstone racial attributes, things that make these fleets unique and fun. While not all of these are related to tokens, most of them are. Some of these tokens are not even removed from the game. The people who are invested in these races, or even those who read the back of the Relthoza shunt cruiser or any of the Kedorian boxes will be really dissapointed.

Command abilities are a really good idea, hovewer there's a large amount of bookkeeping will be required (30 of them has to be spent it's regenerating, it's effects have to be tracked with... well, more tokens). And saying that you now can make a choice of allocating command points to full stop or fold space escape is removing choice from the game, not adding to it.

Yes, playtesting is required to know if the ships are still viable  or not (this is why I don't want to comment on the relthoza dread that has been spoiled). But seeing the loss of choices available to us doesn't require that. Please, please please prove me wrong. I really really love this system. I want the best for it, and I want to have more of your stuff. There are real gems in the proposed rules (intraducing the new linked AD value is the best solution I can imagine, even if the current AD calculation manages to ruin it for me almost completely), the natural allies are better this way (even if I'm afraid the percentage system might not be a best idea to say the least). But is it worth losing (large?) parts of the loyal customerbase for an influx of newbies? (This is an honest question, please don't misunderstand me). Maybe this is a really uninformed post, and I will regret it after the rules are in my hands. But if there's some truth in it I don't want to regret not raising the issues I see with these changes for the sake of changing things.

And lastly I'm really sorry if I have misled someone or hurt feelings or I'm sounding just... plain ignorant. I don't want to cause an even larger breach in the community. If I have offended anyone, feel free to ignore all this :)

 

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It's weird.  In my opinion the "big things" like movement, fire mechanics, and wings (basic game mechanics) are moving in the right direction (notable exception--Command Orders).  But so many "little" things strike me as wrong, and/or hugely faction altering for no real gain that it's hard.  Kinetic, Pinpoint, Cloaking, Boarding, Ambush, Shunting, Primary/Secondary/Tertiary...they keep adding up.

Don't worry Spartan, I'll still try 3.0.  Just feeling pessimistic I guess.

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15 minutes ago, reddwarf said:

It's weird.  In my opinion the "big things" like movement, fire mechanics, and wings (basic game mechanics) are moving in the right direction (notable exception--Command Orders).  But so many "little" things strike me as wrong, and/or hugely faction altering for no real gain that it's hard.  Kinetic, Pinpoint, Cloaking, Boarding, Ambush, Shunting, Primary/Secondary/Tertiary...they keep adding up.

Don't worry Spartan, I'll still try 3.0.  Just feeling pessimistic I guess.

This sums up how I feel pretty well, though the more boarding is discussed the better I feel about it. 

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2 hours ago, reddwarf said:

It's weird.  In my opinion the "big things" like movement, fire mechanics, and wings (basic game mechanics) are moving in the right direction (notable exception--Command Orders).  But so many "little" things strike me as wrong, and/or hugely faction altering for no real gain that it's hard.  Kinetic, Pinpoint, Cloaking, Boarding, Ambush, Shunting, Primary/Secondary/Tertiary...they keep adding up.

Don't worry Spartan, I'll still try 3.0.  Just feeling pessimistic I guess.

Kinda the same

The big one for me being crew points being almost a chore to track for niche cases and completely ripping apart the power of bio and boarding (and as such now grav) and how lists are built meaning we will have to work out % stick to them but other then that it's the wild west and only the best bang for buck ship will ever see play, worse then ever before, big sweeping changes that will really change the game 

So yes - I want the rules in hand and I love the communication and people on the forums talking and the growing sense 3.0 is coming but I don't know if It'll be viable 

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I think they are...but we can't expect every change we put forward to be taken forward - personally yes I have huge issues with a change....but I have to have faith it'll work out in the end - until we get the stats and full beta rules for a few test runs all I can say is I don't think now is  a good time to KS as feels like rules are in flux so asking us to buy in....now....feels premature 

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Im looking forward  to reading those blog posts from Neil soon where he goes explains the reasoning behind new changes like introducing features that add more complexity to the game rather than streamlining it like added multi coloured dices etc Hopefully sooner rather than later its easier to accept changes if you know the reasoning behind them.

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they need to sit down and make a solid template for each main and its supporting faction.

Aquans: aquatic and superior comprehension of 4D movements. Aquatic: superior DR but more susceptible CR. 4D: Shoal tactics leading to more emphasis on numbers and coordination leading to higher link values but average to low individual AD on squadrons.

possible new commands/MARS.

Defensive school: when defending a model may gain 1 additional SH for each other model in the unit. If the attack exceeds the CR all other models in the unit gain a disorder marker.

Sorylians: Pack hunters and analytical masters.  Pack hunters: Relies on speed and multiple unit tactics so higher than average speeds and multiple weapons to support other units. Analytical masters: the longer the fight the better they are at dealing with the enemy they face; FT is equal to the game turn.

possible new commands/MARS.

Thermal Extremes: Target gains a disorder on each model. Roll a single 1d3 add this to each models MV and final AD pool until end of turn.

Directorate: Bureaucratic and inhumane tactics. Bureaucratic: so ingrained with monotony nothing phases them so each unit may remove a single disorder before resolving disorder. Inhumane tactics: sacrifice others to save themselves once a turn a model that receives a critical hit may select one model in its squad to take 1HP damage to cancel one critical chart roll before the results are known.

possible new commands/MARS.

Hostile Liquidation: Target squadron receives a disorder marker and gains +1d3 to its MV and boarding range. Unit may make a free assault this turn.

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Realthozans: Solitary hunters honor and masters of micro technologies. Solitary hunters honor: a two class military structure. The Warriors: Smaller units considered to be true combat ships. The Swarms: training and support squadrons consisting of larger than normal numbers. Masters of micro technologies: Ships sizes tend to belittle their true capabilities as most true Relthozan combat ships have 25-50% more mass than same sized vessels. Warriors: heavy cruisers, gun ships, battle ships, battle cruisers, dreadnoughts, and light cruisers are either solitary capital ships or 2 ships squadrons of advanced elite vessels. Swarms: frigates, corvettes, cruisers, destroyers, assault ships, carriers are either capitol ships accompanied by other swarm ships or are larger squadrons of 5-8 ships.

having never developed true shielding but multi purpose suite of nanomachines that can be deployed to either mimic the ships surroundings or repair outer hull damage to vessels. Shroud of Stars: Ships have cloak(X) and while cloak is off they regenerate(half of X) damage a turn.

Shunt Matrix Overload: each model receives a disorder marker. The unit rolls 2d6" and is placed up to that many inches choosing a new heading after placement; models must be within command distance of each other model in the unit.

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Terran and Dindrenzi already have an interesting thing going with dindrenzi being the sword (offensive) and terrans the shields (defensive) in terms or military ship designs.

RSN and the Dindrenzi organization should be reevaluated. the church thing is fine and all but a more Crusade style would have maybe fit better with RSN being the Knights and nobles and Dindrenzi fleets the common foot soldiers. Personally  just find Knights of Dramos better than the Church of Dramos.

Dindrenzi: The military is still relatively new and should be flexible in tactics it is dedicated to the big gun philosophy of ship design (battle ships).

Initial ships where supposedly mining and colony ships re-purposed, big, sturdy and lacking sophisticated defenses. Ships design focus on good DR and CR but sacrifices mobility so below average TR. Focused and dedicated main guns; Battle ships of every size. Every ship should be built in either a gunship or heavy defense style. Battleships, carriers, cruisers, frigates should all be gunships and or Heavy variants. The only "light elements" destroyers, cruisers, escort carriers, and corvettes should be comparable to standard cruisers of  other factions. Most should be built either toting bigger guns or heavier armor than most other ships of the line. 

possible new commands/MARS.

Defensive manuvers: each model in the unit takes a disorder marker. Unit may fire its gun racks a second time at a different target in the same arc as the first.

RSN: Trades off the traditional armor or firepower for more advanced versions. Replacing a DR or CR with either weak shields from Directorate or the coveted cloak systems for relthozans. In an uncommon display of traditionalism RSN has maintained a disposition to beam weapons liken to the old mining rigs the federation utilized so long ago. This has lead to the development of short ranged but massively destructive lasers weapons capable of turning even the hardest dindrenzi BB int molten slag in short order.

Blazing Fury of Dramos: each model takes a disorder. The next attack with this units beems count the targets CR as if it where 1/2/3 less depending on the targets tier (tier 3 14CR acts as 11CR, tier 1 5CR acts a 4CR).

Terrans: Stubborn defenders of their territory with a long history of war and a willingness to do what is deemed necessary. Capitol ships are stalwart fortresses to project the fleets power. Cruisers being the undeniable jacks of all trades and able to tie together and support nearly any fleet formation from long range fire support, high speed interceptions, or defensive blockade ships. Current ships have seen a decrease in hull protection in favor of massive shield generators.

Hawker: while supporting the terran military dreadnought with new technologies and ship designs Hawker has, unlike the main terran fleets, maintained more traditional defense ship designs while still incorporating the new shielding technologies. Being an arms manufacturer Hawker has incorporated many proto type ship systems into their fleets for testing but do so by enhancing current ships rather than building entirely new one off prototype ships. Unverified accounts have witnessed have reported vessels feature "hard" shields that allowed ships to plow through minefields and debris, shields that allowed ships to phase through incoming fire unharmed, "soft" shields that seemed to dampen incoming fire.

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Command Orders:

Gerneration and Mars.

 A fleet generates 1/2/3 command points at the start of the turn depending on fleet size. Each unit may only be issued one Command Order a turn.

Fleet Admiral: One unit may be issued an additional Command Order of a type it has not been issued this turn.

Ops Center: Fleet generates one additional command point per unit with this MARs.

Dirty Secrets: Once a game unit may use dirty secrets at the start of its activation to generate d3 command points that it may use to issue a single additional order during its activation.

General Orders:

Maneuvers: Each general maneuvers may be issued for 0 Command Points and each model in the Squadron receives a single disorder marker or for 1 Command point. A unit may only be issued a single maneuver an activation.

Hard Burn: The squadron gets -2MV for this activation and may make a single turn before moving forward.

Thrusters to Maximum: The squadron gains +1TL and +3MV for this activation.

Counter Burn: Squadron may move -1/2MV up to 1/2MV.

Fire Resolutions: Each Fire Resolution may be issued for 0-1 Command Points. A unit may only be issued a single fire resoulution an activation. 

Targeted Strike: In addition to normal damage is the targets DR is beat the target gains a disorder marker and for each critical hit roll twice and choose one to inflict. If this order was issued for 0 command points the Attacker is at -1 to hit.

Focused Strike: The squadrons next attack re-rolls 1s to hit. If this order was issued for 0 command points the re-rolled AD cannot explode.

Ordnance Hustle: The squadron can launch an additional SRS that is a clone of one SRS it could normally launch or fire one torpedo as it was two weapons. If this order was issued for 0 command points SRS or torpedo will be half strength.

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Specialist Orders: working....

Boarding: for 0 or for 1 without the chance for failure backlash.

Repairs: 0 squadron re-rolls failed repair rolls. for 1 each model gets a 5+ chance to repair 1HP or CP.

Strategic Precision: Something for reserves.

of course their will should be roughly 3-6 fleet specific ones and each general needs an additional 1-2 that costs around 2 command points.

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