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Firestorm Armada 3.0 Designer Feedback Thread

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3 hours ago, Meatshield said:

If what Commodore Jones has cited is true about mines well that is quite frankly a negative response to the issue of mines.

RB1 torpedoes with Scatter? That's not a unique and tactical weapon system, that's homogenization and picking the lazy way out. So now Dindrenzi can't mine a terrain chokepoint that they pass through at the start of a match to deter flankers that may arrive from shunt or reserves from exploiting the typical Dindrenzi weakness.

IIRC the chief complaint was drive-by mining with placement/timing issues being a second concern, there were options and fixes presented that addressed drive-bys and to varying degrees dealt with the second issue.

Instead we get the total removal of a unique weapon system that had value and unique tactical options and replaced with a torpedoes that have Scatter. The shift in game dynamic is unwarranted compared to the "issue" mines presented and from a consistency point of view Scatter torps, but only on the rear arc is just logic breaking. So a Titan/Ares can have all-around torps, but only, only the super special Aft ones are Scatter because it requires a super special launcher/ammo/mechanism that no-one has figured out how to employ in any other capacity. Also the fact they won't link.

This removal of mines is simply the lazy way out of a not even large problem the weapon system presented. SRS causes more problems in game than mines in my experience.

Yes. I do not think taking mines out of the game is a good idea. I would like to see Terran's get more ships with mines OR give us a ship ( like the Ages) get a hard point that will allow it to sweep mines. this could allow reinforcements coming in behind those factions that use mines and remove them. 

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Have escorts serve as a mine sweepers. This would increase the usefulness of escorts significantly. I am not sure I like the idea of useing srs as minesweepers. Races that have little access to srs will be at a disadvantage when compared to races with a heavy srs capacity. Just my 2 cents of course.

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6 hours ago, Skyhawk said:

Have escorts serve as a mine sweepers. This would increase the usefulness of escorts significantly. I am not sure I like the idea of useing srs as minesweepers. Races that have little access to srs will be at a disadvantage when compared to races with a heavy srs capacity. Just my 2 cents of course.

You might have something there. Since Mines are being replaced with Torpedoes now, wouldn't it have just been ultimately easier to allow Point Defense as a defense roll against Mines?  That would just be a small paragraph added to existing rules, and you wouldn't have go and to alter numerous ships stats, remove and replace a whole part of the weapons chapter and all that ****.

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Personally, I don't really have a problem with Mines themselves - it's how they combined with Aquan speed and Maneuverability that really boosted their effectiveness. Totally agree that SRS are the bigger problem - so I'm excited to learn what Spartan has in mind for a tactical SRS system that doesn't allow them to overshadow the Big Ships.

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Devil's Advocate on the mines.

The main problems were not just Drive-By shenanigans and the lack of a counter, but that also distribution of mines was skewed in favour of 2 factions (Dindrenzi and Aquan) with other factions getting them in various quantities, seemingly arbitrarily.

The newer system (as we understand it so far) solves these issues, and also reduces the token count for a game that has over 20 counters for effects/values.This will speed up the game.

As re-statting vessel has been mentioned, will this mean that more ships have access to mines (stock or upgrade)? As for hegemony creeping in, frankly I've never seen why some factions get all the mines whilst some get none. Makes very little sense to me.

To clarify my position, Mines as is with PD to counter would have been my vote as well, but we'd still have Drive-By, token bloat and the time taken too.

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Drive-by's were never an issue for me, I see absolutely nothing wrong with them (and I've been on the receiving end of plenty). I'm just disappointed that now area-control as a tactic has now been completely removed from the game. First with the removal of Wings/SRS free movement and being able to intercept ships/models, and now mines are gone. Every edition now seems like you're having more and more tactical options being removed.  I'm disappointed.

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I’d like to share a small input based on the info about mines. I managed to get two 800 point games in (we played both on a 6x4 table with the v2.0 recommended amount of terrain. As I interpret it currently it’s on the limit of the recommended point values, and neither 4x4 nor 6x4 is recommended for it, but that’s just a side note, for simplicity’s sake we usually play 800 points and up on a 6x4). We did use 2.0 rules except the mine changes (as we are not in possession of any other new rules), and chose to play Border Clash to further simplify the tests.

 

The first game was Directorate vs Relthoza. Focusing on the mine side of the engagement, the Relthoza had mines on its mixed cruiser squadron and on its trusty Ba’Kash cruisers, while the Directorate equipped the Eliminator BB, it’s destroyer squad, and their very own squadron of Ba’Kash cruiser squadron with the angry balls of destruction (probably tribal disagreements between the Ba’Kash, misunderstood by the Zenian League. The Directorate definitely didn’t try to forcefully merge an allied faction’s ships to it’s forces). It’s important to note, that these fleets were assembled prior to the new info/rumor of the mine changes, so the crews of both fleets were mortified to find their mine bays filled with RB1 scatter torpedoes. The torpedoes didn’t influence the outcome in the least bit. What has been noted: if a squad hasn’t activated yet and another squad shot it in the back, the effective range of the torpedoes is ~8” because of the minimum movement, so anything that is able to get within RB2 is safe. most of the time even RB1 is safe, as at least one ship will leave the torpedo’s range band or firing arc, and the remaining firepower is rarely sufficient to threaten more than 1 small ship if any.

By the way, directorate forces were shredded. Probably it was that they were not fully painted, but the lack of cyberwarfare in their list didn’t help either.

 

In the next game we wanted to release the two minelover faction to each other’s throats, so the Dindrenzi were facing the dreaded aquans. The Dindrenzi (would have) had mines on the Conqueror BB (+2 and double mines too), on the Fury class cruisers, and the Ba’Kash cruisers (what can I say, this cluster is infested with the four handed tentacle monkey pirates). The aquans only had them on their Storms and the Poseidon. The outcome was like it was predestined. The only the Conquerer had (barely) escaped and two (and a half) Ba’Kash cruiser was charging it’s FSD with the almost intact aquan fleet was circling around it as hungry sharks. One time did the scatter torpedoes any mentionable, and that when the aquans deliberately tried to use their linked torpedoes and their mines to take out two Dindrenzi cruisers. They managed to take one (damaged) Fury out and cripple an other, but the (rather limp) retribution came soon after – the remaining two dindrenzi cruisers had to pass the Aquans, so they used their newfound torpedoes the same way – but those were taken out by PD.

 

What we learned from the second game: the only thing the changed “mines” did was a toned down version of drive-by-mining (which this change was supposedly try to eliminate), and all the area control the Dindrenzi was using them for was completely gone. Maybe all this was the result of a too large board (so the mine squadrons couldn’t effectively cover all of it), but that wasn’t the issue previously. What is  the only positive result we could see, that the board is not covered with mine tokens. But in my opinion the price of this is too high.

Overall I’m not a big fan of this change (and that’s putting it mildly). It is certain that there are many rule changes that are still unknown to me, so I was only able to test this out in a vacuum (I wish this pun was intended), but… No. Just please @Spartan Derek, don’t do this (if you are still reading this thread).

Maybe I’ll be able to get more games in, but I’d rather play without this modification.

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Some ideas for SRS...

1) remove the possibility of losing an entire SRS token to asteroids. Make them have losses but not losing every craft in a failed colision check. I think it was silly in current 2.0

 

2) Ace figther and interceptor option. They re-roll colision checks and 1's rolled on PD and (in case of fighters) AD

 

EDIT: regarding mines...

I don´t like the mines to be removed from the game, but I don´t like the mines to be used as a dominant main weapon able to attack directly ENTIRE SQUADRONS in one go instead of individual models (and the lack of defence toward them)

I think mines should be (only) for area control only, and I think the solution is the approach they had in Taskforce. They appear as dangerous area terrain that hinders movement and shooting.

Another idea is to mix the mines with the "Ambush" token, you can hide some ships, or have some bluff tokens and hidden mines. THis makes mines a way to condition the movement of an opposing fleet (control) and not as the ultimate weapon to destroy squadrons.

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On 6/6/2017 at 3:23 AM, Meatshield said:

If what Commodore Jones has cited is true about mines well that is quite frankly a negative response to the issue of mines.

RB1 torpedoes with Scatter? That's not a unique and tactical weapon system, that's homogenization and picking the lazy way out. So now Dindrenzi can't mine a terrain chokepoint that they pass through at the start of a match to deter flankers that may arrive from shunt or reserves from exploiting the typical Dindrenzi weakness.

IIRC the chief complaint was drive-by mining with placement/timing issues being a second concern, there were options and fixes presented that addressed drive-bys and to varying degrees dealt with the second issue.

Instead we get the total removal of a unique weapon system that had value and unique tactical options and replaced with a torpedoes that have Scatter. The shift in game dynamic is unwarranted compared to the "issue" mines presented and from a consistency point of view Scatter torps, but only on the rear arc is just logic breaking. So a Titan/Ares can have all-around torps, but only, only the super special Aft ones are Scatter because it requires a super special launcher/ammo/mechanism that no-one has figured out how to employ in any other capacity. Also the fact they won't link.

This removal of mines is simply the lazy way out of a not even large problem the weapon system presented. SRS causes more problems in game than mines in my experience.

Yes. I do not think taking mines out of the game is a good idea. I would like to see Terran's get more ships with mines OR give us a ship ( like the Ages) get a hard point that will allow it to sweep mines. this could allow reinforcements coming in behind those factions that use mines and remove them. 

 

again DO NOT TAKE OUT MINES it ain't broke so don't fix it

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1 hour ago, murphy'slawofcombat said:

 

again DO NOT TAKE OUT MINES it ain't broke so don't fix it

Like I've often said before, there's nothing wrong with Mines as they are except there is no way to counter them. Something as simple as adding back the ability of SRS to detonate-sweep mines or something similar would be far easier than coming up with all new rules to change things.

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Just now, Commodore Jones said:

Something as simple as adding back the ability of SRS to detonate-sweep mines or something similar

Allowing SRS to sweep mines would put races with little SRS capacity at a disadvantage compared to races with a heavy SRS presence. 

It would be better to give the minesweeper ability to specific ships in each faction. I still think escorts would be a good candidate for this.

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23 hours ago, Skyhawk said:

Allowing SRS to sweep mines would put races with little SRS capacity at a disadvantage compared to races with a heavy SRS presence. 

It would be better to give the minesweeper ability to specific ships in each faction. I still think escorts would be a good candidate for this.

Yeah but Escorts don't have the reach to go out and trigger/detonate an enemy mine while your enemy is still in the blast radius of his own mine. >:D

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then we come full circle again...As I had stated before to add a new ship or add a hard point to an existing ship...ie Terran could add something to R&D shield cruiser or a new ship a sweeper / layer if you will. as for the other factions I would lean in the direction of a new ship .......this ship would stay out side the blast zone to trigger the mine by way of command check 3D6 w/ 2 success to clear mines  if it does not pass command check the mine stays foe one more game turn then try again with a command check.

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then we come full circle again...As I had stated before to add a new ship or add a hard point to an existing ship...ie Terran could add something to R&D shield cruiser or a new ship a sweeper / layer if you will. as for the other factions I would lean in the direction of a new ship .......this ship would stay out side the blast zone to trigger the mine by way of command check 3D6 w/ 2 success to clear mines  if it does not pass command check the mine stays foe one more game turn then try again with a command check.

 

 

would it be possible to  do a poll on this so we could get a better idea how this should go

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On 6/19/2017 at 1:28 PM, Skyhawk said:

Allowing SRS to sweep mines would put races with little SRS capacity at a disadvantage compared to races with a heavy SRS presence. 

It would be better to give the minesweeper ability to specific ships in each faction. I still think escorts would be a good candidate for this.

How about this, give both Zenian and Kurak alliances a faction with an Escort Carrier/Cruiser that can be taken in squadrons of 1 to 3, so that any faction can take a ship or two or three loaded with whatever SRS type is needed for minesweeping duty.  Even go Relthoza style, make them an Escort Frigate squad that can hold wings like the Nidus.  That way you don't have to rewrite ship stats or even change entire fleet rosters by adding a mine-sweeper to every core faction. Just pick a single alliance faction on each side and give them one new ship and bingo!  You have something any faction can take as an anti mine vessel.

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16 hours ago, ThePayneTrayn said:

Why not go a step further and give escorts a Minesweeper MAR? That would give more of a reason to take them. 

Do you really want to risk your Tier 1 command vessels by getting close to Mines? They have to stay in Command Distance, while not unavoidable, it's possible that a failed sweep could lead to running your big wide-turning ship into Mines anyway. Not only that, Escorts are attached to the slowest ships in your fleet, giving your opponent plenty of opportunities to mine the hell out of the area. Maybe even more than you can safely sweep by the time you get there. Escort Carriers or Frigate Carriers and SRS have the safty of reach and speed/maneuverability over Escorts.

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Plus a better way to make Escorts more attractive, give them the ability to Combine Point Defense fire with their parent ship against EVERYTHING including SRS! Also give them the ability to at least link PD fire (if not Combine) with nearby ships assist with PD just like SRS do.

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1 hour ago, Commodore Jones said:

Do you really want to risk your Tier 1 command vessels by getting close to Mines? They have to stay in Command Distance, while not unavoidable, it's possible that a failed sweep could lead to running your big wide-turning ship into Mines anyway. Not only that, Escorts are attached to the slowest ships in your fleet, giving your opponent plenty of opportunities to mine the hell out of the area. Maybe even more than you can safely sweep by the time you get there. Escort Carriers or Frigate Carriers and SRS have the safty of reach and speed/maneuverability over Escorts.

Let me rephrase: Any model with the escort keyword (Escorts, escort carriers, and the hypothetical escort cruiser) can minesweep. Hmmm...what if Interceptors could clear mines, but had to return to base afterwards?

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