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Neratius

Sorylian VS Relthoza Come with a dropped knife to a gunfight?

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Hey fellow lizard people. I need your help.

I am kind of struggling against Relthoza with my Sorylian Fleet. Most of the time we play 1,2k points. i do not know how i should use my advantages properly. the cloak and stealth is pretty good at defending against ranged attacks and as soon as i come close enough to start firing i lost a lot of stuff and i get outgunned by most of the ships of the same class. Destroying a battleship of the relthoza is also a real struggle. They are way more resilient with +1 hp and self repair compared to ma Battleship.

here is a list of the ships and what i think of them against Relthoza:

Dreadnought: solid choice i think. packs quite a punch against capitals and eliminates up to 3 frigates with its broadsides. i kind of feel like throwing the wings out of the window as i rather take some escorts for the PD and i wont be able to do some damage with them against the overwhelming amount of SRS my enemy can throw around.

Battleship: big meh. probably a solid ship but in comparison it costs more than the relthoza counterpart and has less punch at the same rangeband. it cant withstand the fire long with the 8 HP. Weapon shielding gives it an edge but only until i get handed my engine back to me after recieving 4 crits.

Carrier: probably ok but there are alot of SRS tokens flying around on the other side. what gives?

Battle Station: haha what?

Battlecruiser: thats a ship i can get behind, but not as my admirals ship though. it just does not survive. I want to use those cards and i more often need to use things like power to the engines.

Gunship: Well, good ship. a bit hard to use because of the turn limit. good with burn thrusters though.

Defence Platform: skip

Heavy Cruiser: Good ship. But slighty overcosted i feel. comes at like 100 points a ship. the squad size makes it good but it takes alot of my points away. its a double edged sword. (kopis, hehe) and having no shields makes it very vulnerable.

Cruiser: kind of better than the HC because of the cost effiency. also +1 shield. yay. no weapon shielding makes it vulnerable to damage and having to buy the exp engineers, which i have to buy because i want to get rid of corrosive makes it more expensive than i would like. 

Destroyers: hmm, quite useless against stealth... nothing more to say about them.

Escort: the dread likes them, i like them.

Frigate: wow, those things are bonkers. a lot of dice thrown around them. crit rating of 6 makes them pretty solid and hard to kill. pack hunter is a must have for them. 

corvettes: close to the frigates. scout gives an edge for deployment which is good against those spiders hiding in the corner of the map.

Harvester gunship: Well, better than the normal one because it is easier to handle.

light cruiser: they pack a punch. but they are very fragile and deceptive to damage. reasonably costed. good choice, but why if you can take the frigates at a lower pointcost?

light frigate: they can acompany the battleship and make it soooo much better. still not good enough i feel...

Amentum Battlecruiser: i really like them. their front weaponry is very good for the points in my head. they are quite good at boarding aswell. giving them -1 turn makes them a good weapon plattform. but as i struggle to board the spiders anyway maybe not worth it?

assault cruiser: good at boarding, same problem as with the amentum BC

Flak-Frigates: lol why? they are rediculous against frigates and are a good defensive wall against SRS but worth buying as i have the normal frigates up in that slot and they punch spiders all day.

 

What are your thoughts? what of those ships do you use agains Relthoza and maybe i see some ships the wrong way. Tell me how i could use some ships more effective against daddy longlegs.

greets

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As a Relthoza player, I have the following suggestions:

- Spend minimal points on Tier 1. This is not where your strengths are. 
- Maximise points spending on Cruisers, Frigates, and Corvettes. Full squads wherever possible. Maybe include one squad of Bombards to give you more punch at range.

Any Relthoza player is going to want to control the pace of the approach. Don't let them. And NEVER let them isolate squadrons. Sticking together will keep you alive, and maximise your ability to concentrate fire. Well-timed use of Power to Engines will help with all of these.

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One of the major Relthoza advantages is never getting hurt from 20in away or more.  Take that away from them.  Use lots and lots of terrain to cover your movement, and shunt as many frigate and cruiser squads as possible into the flanks of your enemy (watch those mines!).  Battleship plus light frigates shunt bombed into enemy fleet as your T1.  Throw away your TAC cards, you won't get them, don't let your strategy revolve around it.  Cruisers wind up grossly overcosted at 70pts for +1 shield, use those points for more frigates.  Bombards make nice openers with torpedo strikes, and a good clean up/counterpunch crew, but if your opponent is clever with SRS and stealth, they won't get much in early, but a nuke could be a game changer.  They can also absorb some hefty turn 1-2 firepower sent their way.

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13 hours ago, Gasological said:

One of the major Relthoza advantages is never getting hurt from 20in away or more.  Take that away from them.  Use lots and lots of terrain to cover your movement, and shunt as many frigate and cruiser squads as possible into the flanks of your enemy (watch those mines!).  Battleship plus light frigates shunt bombed into enemy fleet as your T1.  Throw away your TAC cards, you won't get them, don't let your strategy revolve around it.  Cruisers wind up grossly overcosted at 70pts for +1 shield, use those points for more frigates.  Bombards make nice openers with torpedo strikes, and a good clean up/counterpunch crew, but if your opponent is clever with SRS and stealth, they won't get much in early, but a nuke could be a game changer.  They can also absorb some hefty turn 1-2 firepower sent their way.

With the exception of Gunships and Destroyers, Sorylians can't hurt anything more than 20 inches away anyway.

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1 hour ago, Commodore Jones said:

Sorylians just got bent over stats-wise in this edition, they've steadily gotten gimped worse and worse with each edition. I'm scared of how $#!t they'll look like in 3.0

I am really really new to the game (1 month) so i do not know anything about the lizard people in past editions. I only see the struggles i have right now facing against my enemies. I have no issues whatsoever destroying fleets from other factions except for the ralthoza as they are pretty similar to the sorylians in their rules of engagement with an edge to the relthoza. As i think, the game is pretty good balanced in general there are some things which are weak against certain factions which will be rebalanced to an amount by 3.0. Right now my prob channels down to: how do i crack the big capital ships of the relthoza more effective than he is blowing up my dino-warriors?

By the way. Thank you everyone for jumping in and giving me your opinions on my issue. I will consider them for upcoming engagements and test them out until i break the spiders back

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Flamebeast and Gasological both make good points, particularly "Any Relthoza player is going to want to control the pace of the approach. Don't let them."

Sorylians are too slow with only 16" of effective range on their weapons to do this conventionally, which is why you keep using Drives to Max all the time.  The only other solution is to use Reserve Shunt Entry as much as possible.  Ideally, you want the toughest ship in your fleet to draw fire and attention so the Relthoza decloak, so you can counter-punch them hard with everything else. Reserves can be finicky, but if you put as many Frigate Squadrons as possible into Reserves, there's a very good chance one will arrive at just the right time.

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Or you can use Ganash Kragg (the sorylian special admiral from System wars) to make sure a key squadron arrives on turn 2 and later.

If points allow you can add a heavy cruiser to your cruiser squadron for shunt bombing. Don´t bother with the +1 shield for cruisers. When shunt bombing, the distances in which you will be operating make shields quite useless. Shields are for approaching from the distance (usually escorting a large capital ship) and you need the power to shields card to make a diference in turns 1-2.

 

The flak frigates are good against SRS heavy fleets like the Retholza. Their only problem is their cost (they cost the same as your regular frigates, with pack hunters if they have the +1 PD) and you probably want to shunt them to hunt for interceptors, so you can follow-up with a nasty torpedo salvo, so make sure points allow you to have enough regular frigate squadrons if you want to invest in the Corvus.

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ok so, i tried some new things out. first of all i have thrown the battleship out of the window and used a battlecruiser. that worked way better  drives to the max looks like my way to go in general as shunting did not work at all. jumping into partially cloaked ships will not do any good. 

i did use the gunships and oh man those things pack a punch together with some cruisers. frigates were overperforming as always ;) 

another thing i learned. no shields are pretty much the same as 1 shield. throw it out of the window aswell.

the relthoza dreadnought is still my biggest problem as it seems to be completely invincible with its amount of hp and self repair. still looking for something to punch through it.

 

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On ‎11‎.‎04‎.‎2017 at 6:38 PM, Commodore Jones said:

Sorylians just got bent over stats-wise in this edition, they've steadily gotten gimped worse and worse with each edition. I'm scared of how $#!t they'll look like in 3.0

yeah, that is the reason I have all other kurak fleets. I am still considering Sorylians to complete the collection! But playig with them is difficult.

Our Sorylian Player loves his gunships, especially since his second race is Dindrenzi, where he is used to do Long range damage even on relthoza.

 

 

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On 4/18/2017 at 6:24 AM, Neratius said:

 

the relthoza dreadnought is still my biggest problem as it seems to be completely invincible with its amount of hp and self repair. still looking for something to punch through it.

 

Don't bother- one of its main jobs is to soak a disproportionate amount of damage, since a lot of smaller Relth ships do more damage than they can take, if they make it into position. Cripple the rest of the fleet, then worry about the big guy.

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16 minutes ago, Hive said:

Don't bother- one of its main jobs is to soak a disproportionate amount of damage, since a lot of smaller Relth ships do more damage than they can take, if they make it into position. Cripple the rest of the fleet, then worry about the big guy.

Not worrying about the big guy always resulted in losing objective- or battlelogwise

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Fair enough, and that's always a risk, but as a Relth player I'd be much more worried about you cutting the hearts out of my less durable squads, leaving it to fend for itself. If the rest of my fleet is in shambles, its gotta either do the work of a whole fleet by itself or try to camp an objective (which you can contest) without getting dogpiled.

 

Look at it this way; as long as you focus on the Dread, everything I have can get into position, take swings at whatever, and generally be destructive. Behind the cloaks/DR/CR/Stealth of the Dread, and the fact that it can Self-Repair later on, I'm not worried about it, right? Now, if I uncloak it and you can dogpile it, go for it, right, but if I'm a smart Relth player I'm counting on it having more board presence than actual effect- any time you shoot at it, something from the rest of my fleet is not taking heat. The thing you've got to remember is that unless I'm backing it up with Battleships and little else (which is dumb, Relth players, don't do this. Easy way to let yourself get outactivated when your ships are already slow as molasses...) you should still be able to put damage and even crits on my other squads, even through cloaks, if you're linking up those broadsides. 

 

The point I'm making is that while knowing how to counterattack is great, if you can pull the teeth from the majority of my squads before I even take my first big swing I'm at a huge disadvantage. THis is one of those places where turning to present a single broadside earlier in the game can pay off massively.

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As i am the "problem" Neratius is having, maybe my insights might be of some help..

The first mistake i think we do is: we rarely play with objectives, and in a 7-8 turn slugfest, the Dread just outlives everything.

Therefore i think the second mistake is not focusing the dread. The Sorylian player most of the time has the activation advantage, so keeping the heavy firepower back until i activated the dread and then using it where it does the most damage is key in my mind.

The third mistake arises from some of the tips i've read, i myself realized quickly that reserves and ambush just take away those vital activations. We are in optimal range from turn 2-3, so why cut ourselves with reserve?

As you all have written, the Relthoza player controls the engagement, but with the massive firepower the Sorylians have, most of the time

7 hours ago, Hive said:

The point I'm making is that while knowing how to counterattack is great, if you can pull the teeth from the majority of my squads before I even take my first big swing I'm at a huge disadvantage

is somewhat possible, in the sense that i have to uncloak, because he will crit me through my cloak regardless.

In conclusion: i would bring everything on the table, focus the hard to remove stuff early, because later you miss the firepower, don't field stuff that doesn't do as much as other alternatives (heavy cruisers, destroyers, light cruisers) and play with objectives.

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