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DorianManhattan

Invaders (War of the Worlds Tripods) out of stock?

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The explicitly stated with the ice maiden and Russian ship that they are getting stats and rules but they are still not designed to be used in everyday games. That they are scenario or campaign sort of models. That has nothing to do with the fact that the Tutonic Order doesn't have their own ORBAT yet.

I personally think the setting would lose a lot if Invaders are made canon. But I think it speaks greatly about Spartan that they made and released them as a for fun faction anyway.

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Are there factions that are nor fun? Models using unofficial and out of date rules seem rather silly to me from an economic point of view, because they prevent the models from being sold. Spartan has to give its customers reasons to buy their products, not the other way round. This is why I also think the Ice Maiden and the Murmansk will get rules sooner or later. Anything but this would be a waste of ressources. I do not buy models I cannot use with official rules, and I think there are still many others that think so.

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Invaders are not that op anymore,  but they were designed to be. Update them, yes. Make them an op force again. I liked that about them. The reason I don't want them to be canon is very simple; they are flat out aliens in an otherwise victoriana steam punk game. Much as there are elements of science fiction genre in the game, it is steam punk at heart. Aliens do not fit this theme in my mind. This is only my opinion of course,  but I am fairly sure I am not alone in this (possibly).

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There are many steampunk games that have aliens, for example Convergence of Crysis in Warmachine. I think Invaders fit very well into the world of DW, but this is just my personal opinion. There are some factions in the game I do not really like, but neither did I try to forbid them nor to prevent them from becoming a part of the DW world. What is not to like about cute little alien boys stomping around in large walkers?  Compared to the many SciFi elements many nations already field, Invaders are not that strange. Btw, I really doubt their rules were intended to be overpowered. The rules for FSA were much more overpowered at that time.

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For me the invaders were pitched just right.  Non-canon so they could be overpowered, allowing you to play them for fun (which we did a little while ago) reflecting movies and fiction, but not in competition  Playing under 2.0 rules (without Dread-Bots) we found that the Invaders were probably about 30-50% too cheap to be comparable to other factions, although they do have the notable weaknesses vs multiple small targets and boarding once ablative is stripped, identified earlier this thread.  Because of the combined fire and lack of offensive boarding they are actually quite a good learner force.

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I really have some interesting plans for these devious beings from the stars...

Really looking forward to getting to them a bit more full force once the madness I am swimming in subsides a bit. Lots to do! never enough time in the damn day!

I know people have always been on the fence about playing against the Invaders. I really would like to hear more dialogue about people's take on them being made into a more "concervative force" or going full "unstoppable villain". Personally I could go either way with it, but I will say that the intent is to make them something balanced in form but never in a way that would have the "tournament stamp" on them, but getting a bit more feel for how the loyal fans would like there power meter to sit would be a very helpful metric.

All the best

-Mike

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I think they should be a very hard fight, and they should have enough differences in types of units that no single type of list/tactic should work against everything.  Some might not be that hard to take out with boarding but other ones you're pretty much never going to board.  I think having built-in scenarios or different win conditions is also necessary, they aren't going to stop just because they've taken out all of your smalls and loosing all of their mediums isn't going to drive them off or let the humans call it a win.  Seems very much like a "last man standing" sort of fight with them.

Given what the humans have built, such as the dread-bots, the invaders need at least one thing that is scarier than the dread-bots.

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An obvious way of allowing invaders to be both as powerful as they are in fiction while also allowing them to be tournament competitive would be to set them a unique and compulsory fleet order, something like two of the three classes of models and the commodore plus 80% mfv (you'd need to test it to determine what would be fair).

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One way to make the invaders a little stronger is to give them high level of shields. In one of the war of the worlds movies if three invaders got close to each other they had very strong shields. ( Say 6 shields ).  If one invader was destroyed the number of shields would be say 3. 2 destroyed invaders leaves only one shield for the last one. You get the idea. I am also kind of stuck on the image of tripods. Flyers to me do not look like invaders. Huge to small tripods works best for me.

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16 hours ago, Lord Nobody said:

One way to make the invaders a little stronger is to give them high level of shields. In one of the war of the worlds movies if three invaders got close to each other they had very strong shields. ( Say 6 shields ).  If one invader was destroyed the number of shields would be say 3. 2 destroyed invaders leaves only one shield for the last one. You get the idea. I am also kind of stuck on the image of tripods. Flyers to me do not look like invaders. Huge to small tripods works best for me.

So, something along the lines of cumulative guardian generators?

Another thing they really need is anti-small options, so maybe giving their death rays the option to forego combining in exchange for a large blast attack could do the trick

As far as the flyers go, I think their current look works fine.

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I had an idea... instead of giving them Ablative armor AND shields (Which is a PITA beyond words)-

What about giving JUST them a MAR called "Reactive Hull".  Any shooting directed at them is shifted 1 RB to the right.  The actuall Range isn't affected, just the number of dice.  Combine them with their shields and any nation will have to get up close and personal with their whole fleet to concentrate fire and take down a Tripod.  Honestly that's how I see a battle against a vastly superior technology- look at any Trek scene against a Borg Cube, some of the battles in the Earth-Minbari war from B5.. just concentrate your whole fleet on 1 ship at a time.

 

I DO like the cumulative generators idea.

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On 22/02/2017 at 5:58 PM, Benchpresser said:

I had an idea... instead of giving them Ablative armor AND shields (Which is a PITA beyond words)-

What about giving JUST them a MAR called "Reactive Hull".  Any shooting directed at them is shifted 1 RB to the right.  The actuall Range isn't affected, just the number of dice.  Combine them with their shields and any nation will have to get up close and personal with their whole fleet to concentrate fire and take down a Tripod.  Honestly that's how I see a battle against a vastly superior technology- look at any Trek scene against a Borg Cube, some of the battles in the Earth-Minbari war from B5.. just concentrate your whole fleet on 1 ship at a time.

 

I DO like the cumulative generators idea.

Except there are ships which don't lose AD in further range bands (hell, some are MORE powerfull when further away), so this could get us back to the problem of specifically tailored fleet being way more powerful than they should be against invaders. This is an interesting idea, though.

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1 hour ago, Erwl said:

Except there are ships which don't lose AD in further range bands (hell, some are MORE powerfull when further away), so this could get us back to the problem of specifically tailored fleet being way more powerful than they should be against invaders. This is an interesting idea, though.

True, but I don't think "tailor-made" fleets are as big a threat to the Martians as they seem.  For the most part you are talking about CoA/Austrailan ships  and to a lesser degree RoF.  The only real weapons that get more powerful the farther away are Rockets.. which are actually the easiest attack to defend against.

Take the Russians- if you use the RB shift, all their ships need to get within RB1 just to put up respectable Gunnery dice... and the Ruskies want to be up close anyway!

If you think about it.. The Covenant should be Humanity's best defender against the Martians from a Tech Level standpoint...but with all energy turrets you are trading larger number of dice for a much more stable, reliable pool.  And once ET-based ships do start to take damage, the drop-off in offense is much more noticeable than on a Ordinance ship.  So a energy turret heavy fleet could hurt the Greenies hard.. remember that they still need to survive the Death Rays AND Harvesters.  Hell... a lot of the Covenant should turn and run when they see a Harvester...

If you combine my Reactive Hull idea with the proposed "scalable" Guardian Generators and you have tough as nails... but not unbeatable.  To me the Russians are still tougher with the Shield/Jammer/Ablative combo....

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On 21.2.2017 at 0:54 PM, Spartan Mike said:

I know people have always been on the fence about playing against the Invaders. I really would like to hear more dialogue about people's take on them being made into a more "concervative force" or going full "unstoppable villain". Personally I could go either way with it, but I will say that the intent is to make them something balanced in form but never in a way that would have the "tournament stamp" on them, but getting a bit more feel for how the loyal fans would like there power meter to sit would be a very helpful metric.

Well, the problem about players being on the fence is a self made one. This is because their rules are ill balanced. Players did not want to play against FSA at that time for the same reasons.

I think the best way is to make Invaders as balanced as possible to create fair and enjoyable games (i.e. going for the "tounament stamp"). There is no reason to make Invaders an exception in this regard. If people really want to play against a superior force, they can create this by just giving it give more points (MFV). If people want to play against superior models, they can create their own scenarios (for example cruisers hunting a battleship). The core rules already give us all the tools it needs.

On principle I like the idea of creating balance by giving a superior force special victory conditions. Sadly, I never saw this work in other tabletop games. A popular example is the Necrons of Battlefleet Gothic. Playing against Necrons was never fun. It also does not work in Age of Sigmar.

If players really want to make Invaders´ rules overpowered by cause,  a way of balancing is to use the SV system. Make them too cheap for their stats but give them high SV. I still prefer balanced rules for the reasons stated above, though.

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30 minutes ago, Lifegiver said:

Well, the problem about players being on the fence is a self made one. This is because their rules are ill balanced. Players did not want to play against FSA at that time for the same reasons.

I think the best way is to make Invaders as balanced as possible to create fair and enjoyable games (i.e. going for the "tounament stamp"). There is no reason to make Invaders an exception in this regard. If people really want to play against a superior force, they can create this by just giving it give more points (MFV). If people want to play against superior models, they can create their own scenarios (for example cruisers hunting a battleship). The core rules already give us all the tools it needs.

On principle I like the idea of creating balance by giving a superior force special victory conditions. Sadly, I never saw this work in other tabletop games. A popular example is the Necrons of Battlefleet Gothic. Playing against Necrons was never fun. It also does not work in Age of Sigmar.

I think the Invaders can get CLOSE to game balance- well closer than their 1.1 version.  I do think they should still be "above" the curve power-wise (they ARE advanced aliens so...) but just not... AS high as they were.  This can be partially balanced by higher point costs, limited model selection forcing them to have limited ways to fufill Force building limits etc.

 

Though I 1000% agree with you on The Necrons in BFG... those and the Nids were the only fleets I ever really lost to with my Chaos fleet.

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Just now, Benchpresser said:

I think the Invaders can get CLOSE to game balance- well closer than their 1.1 version.  I do think they should still be "above" the curve power-wise (they ARE advanced aliens so...) but just not... AS high as they were.

This leads us to the following questions:

1) What is game balance? - For me game balance is an even chance of winning for both sides at the same points.

2) Do we really want game balance? - I think we do, at least this is what we intend with every new orbat and every new edition.

3) Do we want game balance for Invaders? If we want it, how to achieve it? - I think this can be achieved without loosing the feeling of a superior and strange race. Other games succeed in doing this, for example the Combined Army of Infinity. They Combined Army is fully legal for tournaments, and it does not win more often than other factions. Or take a more spartan-like game: The aliens of Halo Fleet Battles ;) .

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17 minutes ago, Lifegiver said:

This leads us to theese questions:

1) What is game balance? - For me game balance is an even chance of winning for both sides at the same points.

2) Do we really want game balance? - I think we do, at least this is what we intend with every new orbat and every new edition.

3) Do we want game balance for Invaders? If we want it, how to achieve it? - I think this can be achieved without loosing the feeling of a superior and strange race. Other games succeed in doing this, for example the Combined Army of Infinity. They Combined Army is fully legal for tournaments, and it does not win more often than other factions. Or take a more spartan game: The aliens of Halo ;) .

I'm not so sure game balance can be defined as both sides having a dead equal chance of winning.  If every side had a exact equal chance you might as well be playing Tic Tac Toe.  

I do think the Invaders can be 'nerfed' a tad and made a regularly playable force... with the understanding that they are more powerful than every other faction but they do have weaknesses, you just have to find them.
I can understand some not wanting them canon- to some they don't belong in Steampunk.  

I wonder if the ban on Boarding them can be lifted?  Would that help 'bring them down to earth"?  Perhaps keep the ban, but make it so that things that strip AP (like Fire, some Tesla effects, etc) are extra effective against them?

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Just now, Benchpresser said:

I do think the Invaders can be 'nerfed' a tad and made a regularly playable force... with the understanding that they are more powerful than every other faction but they do have weaknesses, you just have to find them.

If you do this, you have to be careful not to make them one dimensional. The latter means that the army lists on both sides can win or loose you the game. I really hate this on GW games.

Concerning boarding Invaders, it could just cause a critical hits instead of any other effects.

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They can be boarded, you just have to do enough damage to take off their Ablative Armour.  Once the Ablative Armour drops they gain vulnerable and once they have vulnerable they can be boarded.  It just means you have to do quite a bit of real damage to them first.

My main problem with trying to balance them and making them an everyday force is that it pretty much dictates the direction the story has to take going forward.  You just can't have an alien force invade earth and continue with the path the world is taking.  If these aren't the aliens that left the vault that brings up a whole host of different issues.  And if these are the aliens then why is it that we can beat them relatively easy when most nations have a pretty limited amount of the knowledge gained from the vault and the aliens would have had hundreds or thousands of years to keep building on their technology.  If we can beat them now then what have they been doing?  If we we can then that pretty much has to mean the vault is all out of new and interesting discoveries.  Why aren't they using more of the technology made from information in the vault?

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21 minutes ago, Erloas said:

They can be boarded, you just have to do enough damage to take off their Ablative Armour.  Once the Ablative Armour drops they gain vulnerable and once they have vulnerable they can be boarded.  It just means you have to do quite a bit of real damage to them first.

My main problem with trying to balance them and making them an everyday force is that it pretty much dictates the direction the story has to take going forward.  You just can't have an alien force invade earth and continue with the path the world is taking.  If these aren't the aliens that left the vault that brings up a whole host of different issues.  And if these are the aliens then why is it that we can beat them relatively easy when most nations have a pretty limited amount of the knowledge gained from the vault and the aliens would have had hundreds or thousands of years to keep building on their technology.  If we can beat them now then what have they been doing?  If we we can then that pretty much has to mean the vault is all out of new and interesting discoveries.  Why aren't they using more of the technology made from information in the vault?

To a degree- I think they have to be one dimensional... it just fits them as they've been portrayed.  But with enough... wiggle room to allow for fleet building.

The way I see it.. the issues with the Invaders are 3-fold

1) Massively over-powered shooting.  While thematically, this fits, mechanically it's not fun at all.  Tweak the numbers and rules of the Death Rays and Harvesters down a bit.
2) Toughness.  Lets be honest... the Tripods are tough SoBs!  Perhaps too tough.  Change their defenses to something unique to them, but still tough.  The "scaling" Guardian Generators idea would be great.  Or my Reactive Hull idea.. or both.  Get rid of the Ablative whatever you do... these things shouldn't be nigh-invunerable but should force you to rethink how to attack them.  By now, most players know how to attack the Ablative/Shields combo...
3) The Boarding tweak.  Boarding only after they gain Vulnerable means that you will have a very shredded boarding capability by the time you crack the Invaders hulls- for nations that rely on boarding more than others... this is too high a tax.  Allow limited or modified boarding.  No prizing, or no AP loss just Crits, something to make boarding a threat to these guys again.

and Erloas- as for the tech balance- not every culture will advance at the same pace.  It could be they've been in suspended animation for centuries, thereby slowing tech advance, or the society could have stagnated leading to no desire for discovery.  Take a look at the "Worldwar" series by Harry Turtledove.  Aliens invade earth in 1942, yet they only have the equivalent of ealy 21st century tech (outside sleeper ships).  Why?  Their races' empire has lasted longer than man has been around, yet took take decades, even centuries to introduce new tech, preferring to study it's impact for generations first.  (By the end of the series we had completely surpassed them.. and they still couldn't accept that fact and were struggling with it still, decades later)  

SG could say the Vaults were the Invaders...dumping grounds for tech they considered dangerous or bad.. and they refuse to develop down those routes... there's lots of ways to 'normalize' them.

Hell.. go the Doctor Who route and borrow a page from the Ice Warriors... advanced warrior race but because of the conditions on Mars, very very limited resources to sustain a war.. so you get Martian invasions only every couple centuries when they marshal up enough material.

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The Invaders are not conceptually intended to be a balanced and tournament playable force. The intent was well implemented.

 

Worth an update? Yes! But a total revamp to toss the original concept and make them official tournament cannon? Pass.....I love the Invaders as intended.

 

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I would vote to keep them as they were.  Utterly unique and overpowering.  They need revamped in order to get their power level back but they are the single faction I believe that should keep their crazy special rules and faction only crit table.

OR, Spartan could shelve them and release Darwin's monsters like they all hope they one day will.  

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