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DorianManhattan

Why did Spartan Games make FSM "politically correct?"

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Federated States of America is an ethnically diverse country without slavery - this is laughable if the Confederacy had won the war like in their timeline. 

Having been to Alabama and parts of the deep south there is still lingering racism even to this day and people live completely segregated. In 1870 this would have been less than 20 years AFTER the civil war. In their timeline they say "oh slavery was abolished in 1820" blah blah blah but they do not explain this at all and just claims it happened. The conditions for abolishment of slavery did not exist in 1820 nor in 1860. The entire southern economy was based on cotton farming to ship to Europe and the Northern US intentionally prevented the South from industrializing so as to keep the south dependent on the North. The conditions for rapid southern industrialization did not exist and without slaves the plantation economic model could not work. 

Racist attitudes among Whites would NEVER have allowed for blacks to be on equal terms after the Confederacy won the war in their timeline and same goes for Latinos. The most realistic plausible outcome is that slavery WAS not abolished in 1820 and that after CSM won the war they would have kept slavery and imposed a South-African like apartheid state where white males are on top. And if blacks or latinos were not outright slaves they were at the minimum 2nd or 3rd class citizens and indentured servants.  

Also why on EARTH is the FSM basically the American Flag in red white and blue instead of some variant of the Southern Stars and Bars? If the Confederacy had won the war they would NOT have adopted the union flag who were their enemies. They would have kept their signature GREY confederate military uniforms - but in Spartan Games paint scheme everything FSM is painted RED WHITE AND BLUE of the union rather than the confederate grey. 

I suspect Spartan Games thought not many people would play a racist apartheid faction or a faction based visually too much on the Confederacy so writing the fluff in this REALISTIC plausible way would hurt market sales... In fact I could confirm this almost certainty came up when they were writing up the fluff for FSM. This is also why they painted everything union american red white and blue instead of confederate grey. This is the reason why Spartan Games claims "oh they just dropped the con from the name to make it FSM" when there is zero plausible reason why they wouldn't have kept it Confederate States of America (Which is already an all-inclusive name). Spartan Mike can you confirm this for us? Admit it. Spartan Games went politically correct.

In reality it should be CSM (not FSM) and my CSM force will be painted confederate grey and I'll replace the red white and blue flag with the Southern Bars and my force on tabletop WILL represent a racist apartheid state that still has slavery.    

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I think you answered your own question. Who would want to play that faction? Who would want to write background like that? How many people would question any nation that was allied with them?

They changed a lot of history to avoid some of the worst of what the real world did. They also moved up industrialisation, so maybe they already had the machinery that made working fields by hand impractical. If the civil war then wasn't fought over slavery maybe the cultural baggage around that would be a lot different too.

If you want a grim dark setting where everyone is bad and the only real question is which one is worse I'm sure it would be easy to find that game...

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Basically the advance of industrial tech in their history as ours made slavery obsolete, as wage slaves are a lot more productive and cheaper to run than your classic slaves.  Therefore slavery ended decades earlier than in our universe and the south was fighting for mineral rights and to protect the interests of industrialists not slave owners.  Without the 'south' extending all the way to Columbia there is already a much greater mix of people and a more egalitarian atmosphere.  So yes less racist, less sexist world, but more of a marxists nightmare.

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No even IF the industrial tech made slavery obsolete the racist white superiority attitude would 100% remain as it does today in the deep south. Have any of you been to Alabama or Mississippi? People still live completely segregated and everyone (not just the whites) are deeply suspicious of and sometimes hostile each other. Some police departments (staffed by whites) are funded almost entirely by making mostly bogus and harsh fines on black drivers for minor traffic violations. Think about that. Racism still exists today, in 1870 in a WORLD WHERE the Confederacy won... do I need to finish the sentence?

Why Spartan forces this Utopian world where Latinos and Blacks fight alongside pure bred whites as if they were equals is highly implausible.   

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41 minutes ago, Erloas said:

I think you answered your own question. Who would want to play that faction? Who would want to write background like that? How many people would question any nation that was allied with them?

 

I would totally play that faction. I think a lot of people would too because it's so cool to think of an alternate timeline where the CSM won the civil war and took  over the entire US. 

Saying it is grim-dark the bad guys just because FSM (CSM) is a racist apartheid society is false. People are just products of their time. You shouldn't judge.  

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I believe trying to tie actual political/social commentary and relevance into a Victorian Science Fiction game of toy soldiers which makes, at most, a barely token nod to actual history (cough magic Sturginium, electric harpoons, flying battleships, giant Statue of Liberty robots) is specious at best.

Realistic doesn't exist in the Dystopian World (or any other wargames thank goodness) and plausible is at best something only vaguely present and even then, only in context of a universe more fantasy than fiction.

I also think actual political/social commentary on current places and citizenry does not belong here. I don't know if we have anyone here from Alabama, Mississippi or anywhere else in the former Confederate states but blanket statements about the existing citizenry of any locale on these forums is inappropriate.

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I don't get why you'd want to play a Draka like baddie? There is an industrial dystopia, and Spartan do need more female and difference race commanders, as I loved the Jamaican admiral from Storm of Steel and the wonderful Indian commander from Sirrocco, and I think we need to feel this is a world war, with the Great Powers pulling together their multiethnic warmachines.

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I cared enough to paint all my FSM in a more confederate-like green-grey color and I stickered over all the FSM flag with real Confederate Flags on all the stat cards...

But I just realized that if we accept Spartan Games narrative that there was rapid industrialization and need for slavery was gone... the cause of the civil war (states rights and slavery) would also have been gone too so there likely would have been no civil war. Spartan Games! Do you realize the rabbit hole you went down into with all your implausible fluff and just making stuff up? Face-palm* 

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People would still play a racist America.

I can see why people at a smaller company like spartan might not want to risk it to begin with, just in case. It makes no difference to the game play anyway.

I play racist/evil factions and nobody even bats an eyelid,

in Bolt action I have both German forces, and Japanese, both of whom committed terrible war crimes.

In 40k I have space marines, part of a faction that commits genocide on a whim, performs genetic 'improvements' on their people etc.

in FSA I used to field terrans, another 'follow us or have your planet glassed' faction

nobody is bothered by the nastiness of the history or fluff so I feel spartan could have done the same with the Americans. 

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Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't the American Civil War started over states rights? And abolishing slavery was tagged on midway through, as an extra objective?

The civil war in this universe could still have been about states rights? Or any number of other reasons?? What difference does it make if slavery was abolished before the civil war? 

 

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I disagree with a lot of Spartan Games history, still it does not distract me from the game.

Do as you see fit for your games as I and others do in our games.

Perhaps that can be a new story line in the DW's plot. Areas within a country not helping or worse plotting against other areas.

Examples of Ireland, U.S. Germany (Jews ) and Russia come to mind.

Out right rebellions in all countries of slave like working conditions could be shown in upcoming campaigns.

Dystopian Wars is ours to explore!

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3 hours ago, DorianManhattan said:

In reality it should be CSM (not FSM) and my CSM force will be painted confederate grey and I'll replace the red white and blue flag with the Southern Bars and my force on tabletop WILL represent a racist apartheid state that still has slavery.    

Well, problem solved then :) .

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I certainly appreciate people taking time to dialogue about fluff and story elements greatly.

But a discussion that circles this type of abyss... really not that constructive, informative, or in no way developmental.

So I will kindly ask we steer the ship away from highlighting our frustrations on historical accuracy of oppression and genocide and the like.

And for anyone that doesn't understand why such a topic should be left on the table... while I did not work to create the concept, I certainly get it... try to have a bit more internal clarity. I am strongly opposed to dialogue like this.

Let,s instead try to focus on a wagame about mega boats with silly names and weapons powered by magic rocks! :) 

-Mike

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I do really think that obsessing over historical accuracy is an odd thing to do when it comes to dystopian wars. I have spent months pawing over ever 19th century history book in my local library and can't find a single reference to giant late 19th century battle robots. My repeated letters to the Wright family telling them to stop claiming their place in history and that planes were in widespread use decades before kitty hawk landed me with a restraining order :-s

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I have to agree with Mike on this one - discussions like this have two issues:

- They tend to be highly polarising

- The nature of forum discussions make it difficult to have a proper debate, and they tend to devolve into shouting matches. 

And if want to talk about outrage, why are we not talking about the fact that in the modern world, General Sturm would be considered a war criminal for his use of unrestricted chemical warfare during the Storm of Steel, as well as a regular criminal for his use gas on civilians during the London Raid? And yet, he's one of the main characters in the narrative. And let's not get into the EotBS and the Korean War, or their use of Korea Guns....

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1 hour ago, Merlin said:

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't the American Civil War started over states rights? And abolishing slavery was tagged on midway through, as an extra objective?

The civil war in this universe could still have been about states rights? Or any number of other reasons?? What difference does it make if slavery was abolished before the civil war? 

 

Correct;

 

having lived as a minority in the US south, north, west and east I would say racism is not limited to the south, and having dealt with it overtly for so long, race relations is imo better in the South.  

As an economic system slavery was becoming less competitive than industrialism and would likely been phase out eventually. I can see how sturginium accelerating that even further so that was no longer a an issue in DW history. 

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I've often wondered where my historical accuracy went... as I fly a mosque the size of a hamlet overhead dishing out acid bombs.

Or when my jetpack marines fail to harm a mile high samurai robot welding a glaive.

That's always my first thought: whatever happened to the historical accuracy of this setting!?!

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3 hours ago, fracas said:

Correct;

I'm only responding to your response to the poster you quote because I don't want to get into current events.

The ACW was fought to keep the country united. That is the reason Lincoln and the North didn't let the Confederacy peacefully secede. They understood that the country would be stronger together and they would face position in the future.

BUT. The reason the southern states seceded was most romantically stated as "states rights". But that really doesn't tell the story. What rights were the states worried about the federal government infringing on? Look at the different states Declaration of Secessions to see. They stated the rights that they were worried about. Most of them explicitly state that they are primarily concerned about the Federal Government removing their rights to their property. Then they explicitly state that the property they are worried about is the slaves that were owned. And they were worried about their "peculiar institution of slavery"

It wasn't until the battle of Gettysburg that Lincoln decided to start fighting to abolish slavery. But even then there was more to it than that.

 

By the way. I have lived in Texas my whole life.

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Actually it was Antietam. Lincoln had prepared the Emancipation Proclamation and was desperate for a victory to give him the political cover to issue it. McClellan botched a near sure thing and ended up having to call a stalemate achieved despite a 2 to 1 numerical advantage and a copy of Lee's orders a victory but Lincoln took what he could get. The book "Gleam of Bayonets" does a fantastic job on both the battle and the politics.

4 hours ago, roadkizzle said:

 

It wasn't until the battle of Gettysburg that Lincoln decided to start fighting to abolish slavery. 

 

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