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The really really bad thing about this:

The activation is far too powerful. Being able to lets say a Dreadnought and 2 Squads of divebombers in 1 activation really kills the game mechanic. This would be like ok i move and shoot all my models and then ur crippled ships can go on .....

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13 minutes ago, Green said:

The really really bad thing about this:

The activation is far too powerful. Being able to lets say a Dreadnought and 2 Squads of divebombers in 1 activation really kills the game mechanic. This would be like ok i move and shoot all my models and then ur crippled ships can go on .....

Didn't see that happen in our 2 plays.

Our house rule is not perfect but we can't play with the current official one anymore (my gaming group quit DW to Planetfall for this reason and we recently came back to DW when version 2.5 of the rules were announced). Stalling with SAS activation to force the opponent to activate his vessels first is really strong but time consuming. If you don't want to be outclassed by your opponent, you need to use the same tactic and bring a lot of SAS (activations) in your fleet, and the first round of play is more time-consuming with a lot a silly useless move of recon planes.

Really hope that this aspect of the game will be fixed with the next version of the rulebook.

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Jub, out of all the ways to change SAS your way is generally what I consider the worst possible way to go so I am curious on your exact mechanic.

How did you rule on multiple bomber attempts?  Can the target shoot at all incoming wings or are you calling it the same as rockets and torps where you can only defend against one and the rest get a free pass?

As above, if you have bombers and rockets coming in do you only get to target one?

Did you test it with a boarding heavy advance such as three Chinese medium carriers with bombers?  Either against a single target or to wipe out a weakened squad in one swoop?

Did you test a commodore fleet carrier and attached medium carrier controlling up to five wings of fighters to clear the sky on the opening of turn two?

Did you test how multiple wings of fighters target a single aerial large or heavy bomber?

 

Changing a rule to eliminate a perceived issue can easily create others so I would like to hear your play testing of these situations.

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I really like the idea of someone else in which SAS has to start from the carrier in turn 1. So after the first activation of the carrier they are placed within 4" with an activation marker. 

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38 minutes ago, Green said:

I really like the idea of someone else in which SAS has to start from the carrier in turn 1. So after the first activation of the carrier they are placed within 4" with an activation marker. 

I would not chose this solution in the completely new rules (3.0) but in 2.5 I would like to see this implemented because as far I can see there are not any unexpected consequences.

1 hour ago, jub said:

Our house rule is not perfect but we can't play with the current official one anymore.

Have you tried Fleet Action rules? It might be a way to go while waiting for 2.5 rules.

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While I never found this to be a big problem (except where carriers are still armed as well as battleships, where points might need to tweak), I think Spartan may have solved the perceived issue by giving everyone access to bombards.... By all means feel free to move your SAS up, I'll just stay here blasting holes in your fleet whilst you're busy. I think activation spammers may start to rethink :-)

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...and that's the bigger problem than SAS spam, in my view it's more that the carriers with battleship firepower and resilience should cost about 50 pts or so more than that nation's battleship, or have less firepower to reflect the benefit of the SAS. Torbillion actually costs less than the battleship, therefore too cheap.

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3 hours ago, Lurking Vanguard said:

... Area bombardment 11 will start to remove squadrons fast.

I don't see this point. Just leave one template space between your ships. Your opponent won't waste a 11AD knowing he can kill 1 small for sure and a second one with a little luck (the second template scattering in the right direction).

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Seriously, the Magnate does not need to use Area Bombardment. It is better at going after large models, leaving the rest of the fleet to deal with small models.

 

Seriously, Area Bombardment is a waste of time shooting at smalls.

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5 hours ago, Lurking Vanguard said:

...and that's the bigger problem than SAS spam, in my view it's more that the carriers with battleship firepower and resilience should cost about 50 pts or so more than that nation's battleship, or have less firepower to reflect the benefit of the SAS. Torbillion actually costs less than the battleship, therefore too cheap.

Having used Tourbillions multiple times, I slightly disagree with you. The Tourbillion is good, not doubt about it, but a couple of hits (which are not that difficult to achieve with its DR6 even obscured) will drastically reduce its firepower. Since its a flyer, usually everything has line of sight to it, so it catches a lot of random fire because it is the only target. I feel the Tourbillion is about right for its costs in the current ruleset.

Looking at other carriers with battleship grade weapons; what are the suspects then:

  • The Elbe, which is approximately the same price as the Kaiser Karl
  • The Tourbillion, which is slightly cheaper then a Magenta with a cloud gen
  • The Vauban, which is a dreadnought and roughly the same cost as the Charlemange
  • The Diophantus, which is a dreadnought and slightly cheaper then the Prometheus
  • The Dudinka which is slightly cheaper then the Borodino (and I'm not completely convinced it has battleship class weapons or stats)
  • The Affondatore, which is more expensive then the Mars
  • The Asgard, which is the same price as the Emperor/Eider Mk1 and is more expensive then the Ragnarok
  • The Elysium, since it is the only non fortification large of the HEC this one is a bit difficult to compare
  • The Zhanmado, which is probably the most expensive carrier in the game
  • The Regent, which is is cheaper then the ruler, but I'm not completely convinced about it having battleship class weapons.

I think most of these models are pretty fine where they are price wise, they might need a small price bump but to much and they will not be used anymore. Looking at the other set of non-medium carriers they all have stats that are considerably below battleship level (around DR6/CR8 ) and or lack the extensive weapon suites of the vessels mentioned above.

I think activation spam is increased by the fact that most people use a lot of spotters to spam activations. This is aggravated by ships such as the Canda or the Sturmbringer which launch their own Spotters. Maybe another option might be to reduce all the carrier (6) carriers to carrier (5) and eliminate a lot of the extra spotters from the carrier (6) models. This reduces a lot of meaningless spotter activations and makes launching a spotter from you carrier a choice which costs you a full SAS squadron.

Maybe reducing the number of SAS spotters is also a way to combat activation spam.

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The entire recon plane system is broke and always has been.  Who honestly wastes several activations early in the turn on a hope that you can spot a single target?  Squadrons that are able to maneuver, fight, and give you several attempts at the same time are useful but I have never seen a meaningful recon SAS used except on turn one.

I would gladly change separate spotting attempts into a single pool instead.

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58 minutes ago, Veldrain said:

The entire recon plane system is broke and always has been.  Who honestly wastes several activations early in the turn on a hope that you can spot a single target?  Squadrons that are able to maneuver, fight, and give you several attempts at the same time are useful but I have never seen a meaningful recon SAS used except on turn one.

I would gladly change separate spotting attempts into a single pool instead.

 

Good point. Recon planes are kind of fun for lore and the look of things. But in game they have limited uses. Activating them as part of an other unit would make so much more sense.

I like how in theory a RECON elements aids setup as recon ships gives you +1 to some die rolls at setup. But in 2.0 I don't want the +1 cuz loosing it is better :)

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To be honest, I use recon planes a lot in my Prussian force. My "basic" 1000pt list uses 3 (1 from the Sturmbringer, 1 from the Elbe, and 1 from local air support). This is because I use models with bombards. When I go larger, and include a Rhine or two, I increase the number of recon planes again (this time, 1 from the Rhine, and 1 from the attached Havel).

In any fleet I take, I only take spotters if I actually have weapons with Indirect fire.

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Well I'm generally up against Raj so indirect fire and spotters are a thing here. I found that the most effective counter is to bring more carriers so I can counter his activation spam with my own SAS squadrons. I usually don't take spotters to waste activations but to make my bombards effective.

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You know... I'm a idiot... it finally clicked with me on what Activation Spam is!!!

 

I know we want to avoid MAR growth... but I really think the recon planes need to be linked to the weapons they will be used for.. and activate when the ship/airship/tank does.

 

 

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Instead of adding nonsense from firestorm (i.e, making SAS activate with their carrier) why not borrow from Halo? Now I haven't played that game, but from what I'm told the fighter craft have their own phase. This gets rid of activation spam in one fell swoop without impeding any other element of the game and doesn't require point increases.

 

It can easily replace the Command phase as a thing and all SAS must go first, and you cannot start moving models until all SAS are moved.

Bam, activation spam is a thing of the past.

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