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15 hours ago, Ryjak said:

 What tools were available in previous editions to remove SRS token? 

In V1.0 Wings were free roaming  and you could send out Intercepters to deal with Intercepters, in v1.5 Squadrons linked their PD fire against Wings/SRS, and at least had a halfassed chance of doing some damage, Escorts Combined PD with their parent ship for EVERYTHING, even against SRS.

Just think of what squad linking PD against SRS could do! You could use Frigate/Corvette squadrons for PD drive-by against Intercepters. Or like in the old days, strategic movement/placement of other squadrons as PD cover for more valuable/strategic ships.

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From a design standpoint, games have 'win' conditions and/or 'lose' conditions.  FSA only has win conditions, as it's a zero-sum game.  The way you win is by making your opponent lose.  There is no seperation of objectives; there is just one goal: kill.

There are also no instant win or lose conditions in FSA.  Sure, if you get tabled, you probably lost, but it's not an actual lose condition.

So, the easy way to create Scenarios is to add lose conditions to the Battlelog win condition... and to not tie it to directly destroying your opponent's ships or keeping yours alive.  My first thought is if any Capital ship which starts on the table makes it to the opposite deployment zone.

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47 minutes ago, Commodore Jones said:

In V1.0 Wings were free roaming  and you could send out Intercepters to deal with Intercepters, in v1.5 Squadrons linked their PD fire against Wings/SRS, and at least had a halfassed chance of doing some damage, Escorts Combined PD with their parent ship for EVERYTHING, even against SRS.

I think both mechanics would be a good addition.  Escorts should equal death to Bombers, and I think Tokens shouldn't be tethered.  However, this would require a seperate SRS phase to impliment effectively... like almost every other game out there.

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14 hours ago, Dr_Vector said:

I'm not sure what the suggested escorting feature would really add to the game, unless the SRS loiter as Interceptors do now.  Otherwise I only see a worse situation compared to carrying two tokens of Bombers.  Enemy SRS are only going to get one potential dogfight against two activated tokens of Bombers and the SRS type they dogfight doesn't affect how effective they are in driving them off.  Not to mention you can't launch more than one token per activation so unless the SRS escorts are allowed to loiter, escorting really doesn't seem like a good use of fleet points.  The only noticeable advantage the SRS escort might provide as I see it, would be an opportunity to dogfight against multiple SRS tokens during an attack run.  Frankly that doesn't sound like a good situation to be in to begin with, nor a very sustainable one for the same wing to deal with several times within the same activation.

Couple easy ways to deal with that.  1)  Only the wings making the actual attack runs would return to base.  Escorting wings (and defending wings) would simply return to command distance of their carrier but stay launched; 2) Escorts launching with an attack wing do not count for the one token per activation launch restriction.

Shrug--I admit partially I came up with this idea because I don't like wings counting against torpedoes period (the only historical exception was the V1 rocket in WW2, but even the V2 couldn't be "intercepted"), plus I'm partial to the idea of fighters escorting bombers ala WWII style. 

In practice if you couldn't create a PD mountain against torps with interceptors I think you'd see a lot less of them taken purely defensively, which itself would make escorts (the ship, not the wing role :) ) more likely to be used if you expect your opponent to bring wings (plus giving escorts an additional boost--I'm not married to +1 PD, expanding the dice values they hit/drive off would work too, and I also support Driven Off being a cumulative thing).

Who knows what Spartan will actually come up with :)

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I too think Escorts should be the major Torpedo defense instead of SRS.

IMO Escorts should have a PD umbrella that LINKS with nearby squadrons while still combining with its own. For SRS I like the idea of the combat air patrol to attach them to a squad and Link with only it.

Escorts are able to be targeted and removed by normal fire, which gives the opponent some chance to mitigate their effect. This would also justify their higher points cost. Perhaps also allow them to be fielded as their own squad an unattached to another(Escorting the whole fleet in defense against Torpedoes and SRS).

Interceptors would then become less effective at anti-torp, but just as valuable at anti-SRS. Perhaps certain Escorts should get Bigger Batteries and/or s boost to their "to hit" dice vs SRS as a boost to some fleets with less access to SRS(interceptors).

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4 hours ago, reddwarf said:

Shrug--I admit partially I came up with this idea because I don't like wings counting against torpedoes period (the only historical exception was the V1 rocket in WW2, but even the V2 couldn't be "intercepted"),

And you don't think that might have to do with the technology present in detection/tracking of the warheads and speed and accuracy of the fightercraft at that time ?

In SciFi, Fighters intercepting ship to ship torpedoes is a pretty common theme, and that's exactly the reason why I'd like it to stay. It just needs to be balanced with the other options. There are many possibilities for that besides taking the option away entirely. Have a token guard one squadron (or even just one ship) that has to be assigned when the token moves, have tokens link their PD with the ships they are guarding just like everybody else, decrease PD range for tokens, increase their cost, have them intercept torpedoes at the risk of getting blown up in the process due to the warhead exploding (they'd have to roll seperately then, so that might not be the best solution) ... I could think of some more, these are just the easy ones.

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2 hours ago, Oppi said:

In SciFi, Fighters intercepting ship to ship torpedoes is a pretty common theme, and that's exactly the reason why I'd like it to stay.

I'd say it's a pretty rare theme, as I can't think of any sci-fi setting where this is even an option, let alone common:

Star Trek: Nope

Star Wars: Nope

Battlestar Galactica:  ???

Firefly: Nope

Homeworld: Nope

Halo: Nope (from games I've played plus books)

Mass Effect: Nope

Macross:  Dodging missile swarms is different than ship-to-ship Torps

Wing Commander: Nope

Free Space:  Nope

Actual reality: Not even close

Maybe my memory is rusty on some of the above though.  Also, a theme allows for a one in a million shot, such as the only V1 ever shot down by an aircraft.

Perhaps this topic is worthy of its own thread?

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The only time I think I've ever seen interceptors shooting down torpedoes in sci-fi was from a video game called Star Lancer, the predecessor to Freelancer. It was a tedious thing that the player was required to do all too often, to boot. 

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I'd curious to know the specific situation(s) when and why you believe Escorts effectively soak fire for T1 ships.  What are the situations where Escorts have shifted significant fire away from their T1, or even the rest of the fleet.  I've only see fleet point party favors floating around waiting to be quickly popped before they can become relevant.  The best I can recall them doing is shift initial fire towards other squadrons and hope that taking effectively unarmed ships instead of armed frigates was the right choice.

 

As far as SRS intercepting torpeodes in science fiction goes I can only cite Strike Suit Zero off the top of my head; which is basically a space fighter game where the fighter can transform, similarly to Macross/Robotech, into a humanoid mech with ridiculous amounts of firepower and missiles.  Torpedo interception happens relatively frequently in that game so a sample could be found quickly with an internet search engine.  I want to swear there was something aside from Star Lancer that also had SRS intercepting torpedo type ordnance, but I couldn't dig up another solid source quickly.

Regardless of that, the FSA system is a pretty varied and I think delicate sort of, "ecology," for torpedoes.  No matter how you might go about changing it, SRS are too dominant a choice at the PD coverage role currently.  Adding in sources to remove SRS, and by extension their coverage, more easily and directly with models is an option.  Frankly the question then becomes how many additional parts of the FSA system are you trying to tinker with at the same time.  The more systems you alter, the more invasive changes become, and I'm curious to see how far 3.0 goes; but at the same time my only real wish is for a solid release with good play testing and, ah, editing.

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I would like the good old V1 Version to shoot at Torps (eg hit on 5+) and only heavy dice mechanic.

The SRS problem: I've played some fighter heavy carrier recently and they are OK to stop bombers in their track.
But I would like to see changes like the folowing:
- Attack runs happen in the shortest possible way (speeding up the game and allow fighter to block Bomber)
- All PD fire ist pooled using the linked fire option.
# Only 1 use of PD per aktivation

It would be great to see more Scenarios. atm the scenarios are ok but apart from Recover resources and Ambush! there is only a slight  BL impact.

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6 hours ago, Ryjak said:

I'd say it's a pretty rare theme, as I can't think of any sci-fi setting where this is even an option, let alone common:

Wing Commander: Nope

It was definitely in Wing Commander, very much so. I can even recall when I encountered that. In Wing Commander 3, one of the first missions, the Kilrathi have those "skipper" ship to ship missiles that periodically cloak, you have to intercept those for them not to hit your carrier. Starlancer did it as well. BSG didn't have to do it because they had those huge clouds of spray and pray "point defense" fire on the Battlestars. A totally different approach to SciFi from all the others.

Many of the others aren't actually fitting examples. Star Trek doesn't really have SRS, Star Wars doesn't really have ship to ship torpedoes (I at least never saw any in a movie, they only used small ones on "SRS" Bombers), neither does Mass Effect (everybody basically uses railguns, because the accelerated-by-mass-effect projectiles have far more kinetic energy than any explosive can ever make up for).

Maybe I should correct my original claim a bit: "It's a pretty common theme in SciFi that does have all three: Capital Ship battles, fighter carriers and ship to ship torpedoes."

 

 

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Actual reality: Not even close

What in actual reality is anywhere close to anything in FSA ? "Real" starship battles wouldn't look like what we see in FSA, Battlefleet Gothic or similar games at all.

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I forgot about the 'skipper' missiles in Wing Commander, but they only "worked" due to their poor cloaking technology.  They likely would have been more effective if they flew faster instead.  Made for an interesting gameplay variant, as it required devided attention.

When I said Actual Reality, I meant today's modern warfare.  Underwater torpedoes have always been very devestating since the first effective one was developed, and even today we don't very effective counter-measures.  Airborne torpedoes, aka cruise missile, are also very hard to stop.  While an interceptor aircraft could potentially shoot one down, even having a full fighter wing scrambled flying CAP would have little chance to block one cruise missile, let alone several.

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does anyone remember the thread about the Terran's R&D shield cruiser and how to make it better like giving it wings or mines upping its PD. well here's my 

2 cents. I would like to see this cruiser get a choice in hard points of upping her PD by 2 or getting  3 wings  and adding a 4 AD mine to its up grade.

doing this would make a true support vessel and something worth escorting a carrier putting around a Destroyer  Nuke torpedo's  would also be good in up grade for 10 points. 

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9 hours ago, Ryjak said:

Battlestar Galactica:  ???

Yes, in the two hour pilot episode/movie, I haven't seen all the series yet to know if it was done again later.

 

Quote

Firefly: Nope

Possible yes, Serenity didn't have weapons, Reavers don't use missiles so all the official footage of space combat didn't include this.

 

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Macross:  Dodging missile swarms is different than ship-to-ship Torps

Is it?  I've seen missile swarms shot down by fighters/mechs all the time. If you can peg a tiny fast moving mini-missile a big anti ship missile should be no problem at all.

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On 12/2/2016 at 11:40 AM, Ryjak said:

I think both mechanics would be a good addition.  Escorts should equal death to Bombers, and I think Tokens shouldn't be tethered.  However, this would require a seperate SRS phase to impliment effectively... like almost every other game out there.

No it wouldn't, just go back to V1 rules were SRS simply got their own activation just like a squadron.

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39 minutes ago, Commodore Jones said:

No it wouldn't, just go back to V1 rules were SRS simply got their own activation just like a squadron.

That seems rather tedious, as some SRS-centric fleets could launch an SRS Token every Model activation, and would very quickly have an Activation Advantage for little cost.

If you think this V1.0 mechanic is superior, what makes it so good, and what other issues does it have? (Note: all mechanics have good/bad components)

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Chillax there Alex! I'm not saying go totally back to V1 (since most people are too squeamish for that level of complexity) , just implement some elements of it. Like free-range and separate activation's like I mentioned above. (personally I'd also like to add back universal Interception of ship squadrons)

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Here is where I would prioritize changes:

-  Movement:  movement is too clunky and tedious, and takes up way too much time. There are several ways movement could be streamlined without removing tactical precision.

-  Dice Pools:  The algebra, I'll simple, and become very complicated, and is the hardest mechanic for players to learn.  Several proposals would streamline this process, while maintaining a gradual drop in firepower.

- SRS:  Everyone understands Interceptors are broken, but no one can agree on how to fix it.  The simplest solution is to implement the system used in BFG. I, and many others, have proposed additional alternatives. 

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The Star Wars Xwing and Tie series did have you all too often shooting apart proton torpedoes and concussion missiles before they repeatedly slammed into that convoy you were tasked to protect :D.

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If  you could rewrite rules from scratch for SRS in FA what would you do?. Remember primarily for this exercise, that it appears the intent for small craft in FA is that they cannot travel too far from their parent carrier or operate independently outside of the command distance for too long. I understand that there will be as many answers to this as as there are Simpsons episode's but I would like to see the different ideas stacked up against each other. Remember the intent in FA appears to be to let SRS add to defense against torpedo attack..

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Okay I will try this again.

A couple ideas for SRS:

1.   Reduce the Radius of the interceptors PD bubble  (this might be the easiest but probably not the most effective)

2.  Remove the PD value from bombers, remove AD value from Fighters

          A.) Interceptors and fighters PD is reduced to 1

          B.) Give Fighters a "dogfighting" rule that grants a +1 or +2 against other SRS

          C.) increase the interceptors PD bubble by 1 or 2 inches.  (so 7 or 8 inches, so reduced PD but can possibly cover more ships) 

          D.) Fighters are allowed to be out of command distance for 1 turn or maybe even increase their range

          E.) Each SRS has a mission now, fighters to sweep space clear of other SRS, Bombers for anti-ship offense, and interceptors "intercepting"                      things

Just some ideas.  I would probably give all escorts a +1 PD value or something else that makes them useful again.  Haven't really thought about the problem much.  Just coming back to the game after a break.    But my main focus is to fix the problem without effecting the other parts of the game.

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On my wishlist:  Electronic Warfare SRS (wild weasel).   Possible Cyberwarfare for fleets that don't have cyberwarfare.  Also could have a mine sweeping rule, so a 50/50 chance to deactivate the mine or maybe delay detonation for a turn.

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