Jump to content
Grand-Stone

What I (we) want... (dystopian empires reply)

Recommended Posts

Yes, I am still here but Spartan's support for this game walked out the door along with many of their players.  The disaster of Empires proves Spartan does not really have a clue what to do here.

I have played a total of two DW games this year.  I have given Spartan zero money for over a year.  You can't house rule interest in a game when the company leaves it to rot on the vine.  Players will, and have, gone elsewhere.  While I would really like this game to live on it needs some help.  V3.0 is not needed.  It does not need Halo mechanics ported over.  It needs a few tweaks, new releases, and some faith rebuilt in Spartan.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I play mostly naval games with aerial support sticking strictly to the rules (concerning TACs...) and don't feel the need to "streamline" or change something. I'm quite happy with the system itself (MARs/Generators, TACs, to Hit-numbers, boarding).

 

I see, that some ORBATs could have a look or two by the designers, but are not sure how I would do this. Most of the time, I have the feeling people are whining about overpowered units which are a must in every list - and at the same time demand stronger generators, larger AD pools or more firepower in RB4 - just to generate these auto-include units/synergies. From my experience, I can state on naval, maybe aerial stats, but definitely not on armoured ones. So working my "wishes" into an ORBAT would result into destroying its internal balancing (naval/aerial/armoured) and its balancing towards the other factions or just destroy the flavour (RB1 torpedoes for KoB for example).

 

What I want from SG is a constant flow of content concerning DW. I know, they are a small company maintaining several games. So a reasonable cycle would be 4-8 weeks to make me remember I have the DW-Hobby. This could just be a new scenario, a short story (with one or two nice pictures of the characters taking part), a detailed (with background) announcement of new models to come, a (fake) battle report (showing how the designers use certain units) including some narrative,...

What I also want is focus and continuity: What about all those promised things like factional commodores, additional TACs, the faction books, the 3 campaigns promised in February (now they're kicking of a 4th campaign?), what about the hinted STO super carrier? I would definitely have spent money on all these things but couldn't find an "Order here" button. And I don't want to wait that long for announced new models. More than two months between announcement and release is too long. The "coming soon" KoB Sturginium Drilling Rigs should be under my Christmas tree...this year.

 

What I would love are new models for the Republic of Egypt, the Free Hellenic Kingdom/Garibaldis Legion, a submarine carrier (maybe KoB or EoBS), a RC repair sky fortress, DoC skimming navy (to operate in the ice wastes towards Greenland) and more (printed) books (or booklets) (including background on how the world works).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Veldrain said:

So few models have Shield (1) that your comparison is laughable.

Veldrain, I think it's laughable that you thought my suggestion was specific to shield (1).  It was more an example of how things could be streamlined - just as relevant for other shield or rugged levels. What's needed is a reduction of the exceptions that have people reaching for the rulebook - like shield having a different effect on guns than rockets... why? like rugged needing your opponent to role one less dice  (no other MAR or gen effects the other players no. of dice, so often forgotten in the heat of the moment).  Why not just a shield (X) that effects all weapons equally.... and yes I do realise that shields and rugged are different, I'm just suggesting that the minor differences don't warrant the extra complexity.

 

19 hours ago, Veldrain said:

While I agree the index is fairly worthless, how would you rewrite the book?  As far as gaming rule books go it is fairly close to the conventional layout.  Intro -> Rules in a general game turn order -> Random things.  Are you talking a whole layout change?  Just small wording and descriptive changes?

No, the order of things is OK, I mean small changes in wording and descriptions for greater clarity and greater use of summary tables throughout for easy reference.... and a decent index.

 

19 hours ago, Veldrain said:

The movement Gens/MAR's are fine as they are.  Each has a strength and weakness that separates them.

You're entitled to your view... me too! :-) I feel the differences are marginal, except for the actual distance added.

 

21 hours ago, Grand-Stone said:

I find the disruption node launcher to be an important part of the game. It add's a lot of strategy and what if and fun.

Fair point, I was more thinking of Fury and Calcification node launchers where the large area means this is too lethal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rugged construction (N) could function similar today, but with the exception that it gives you 1 dice of defence. With the biggest difference from shield is that it cannot be turned off.  I also agree with you that there are several tiny differences between things that could be easier.

I agree that in general there are some exceptions which could be done away with. For example the rockets versus shield, some of the SAS to-hit numbers which I never remember, (why lett all sas have -1 to be hit from everything), etc. etc.

 

For node launcher: maybe the area effect could be kept for generators with a area effect, and not for the ones without?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If Spartan is moving away from boxes then being able to dribble cool models and add them to the shop and online army lists might be easier, and as long as they are for existing factions or mercs will keep interest up, like the old DelBoy preview posts that drove us wild.  I mean some of us would bu models without the rules for the coolness and house rule  until official rules come out.  A campaign system for linking games and the the roleplaying game are both things that appeal.  Also those additional factions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, Veldrain said:

Yes, I am still here but Spartan's support for this game walked out the door along with many of their players.  The disaster of Empires proves Spartan does not really have a clue what to do here.

I have played a total of two DW games this year.  I have given Spartan zero money for over a year.  You can't house rule interest in a game when the company leaves it to rot on the vine.  Players will, and have, gone elsewhere.  While I would really like this game to live on it needs some help.  V3.0 is not needed.  It does not need Halo mechanics ported over.  It needs a few tweaks, new releases, and some faith rebuilt in Spartan.

I think that Spartan have a fair idea of what to do, more so than most forum posters that have never come close to running a business focused on miniature gaming. That's just my two cents to that notion.

Whilst I don't think we will see any major DW release this side of mid 2017 I wouldn't write it off completely as I am pretty sure GW are aware of the importance, both in company perception and revenue, that DW holds.

However we have to face facts - at some point there will be no new units to release after a saturation point and all there will be will be the odd campaign and enthusiast driven material, it's just what happens in a products' life cycle.

In regards to the nuts n bolts of DW I do agree with a lot of the other posters that tweaks are needed - but I tend to house rule them and provide feedback where appropriate as I know we will be holding breath for a considerable period for a rule rewrite.

In other news - where are my sturginium rigs ??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, richomack88 said:

Whilst I don't think we will see any major DW release this side of mid 2017 I wouldn't write it off completely as I am pretty sure GW are aware of the importance, both in company perception and revenue, that DW holds.

GW? Surely you mean SG right? :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would expect the models we currently have to be released before mid next year.  They've sat and been went over along time. 

 

I wish i could do something similar to Derek's old preview post but I can't type stories like he did. Nor do I have that amount of info that he did when he wrote them.   Other issue would be NDA clearance. But I seem to be doing ok with that so far. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Reacher said:

I would expect the models we currently have to be released before mid next year.  They've sat and been went over along time. 

 

I wish i could do something similar to Derek's old preview post but I can't type stories like he did. Nor do I have that amount of info that he did when he wrote them.   Other issue would be NDA clearance. But I seem to be doing ok with that so far. 

pkD390z.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From the new Blog post they are going to go with Kickstarter now, not a new game, but something the survey clearly said we wanted.  They've listened to us.  Still feels like a loss for me though as I despise Kickstarter.  /sigh.  I'll wait and see what they go for but I may well be done now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Cassaralla said:

From the new Blog post they are going to go with Kickstarter now, not a new game, but something the survey clearly said we wanted.  They've listened to us.  Still feels like a loss for me though as I despise Kickstarter.  /sigh.  I'll wait and see what they go for but I may well be done now.

Out of interest - why the hate for Kickstarter?

I'm not that bothered about it, my only concern is the delivery of the final product.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, richomack88 said:

Out of interest - why the hate for Kickstarter?

I'm not that bothered about it, my only concern is the delivery of the final product.

Personally, I dislike kickstarter because it just seems to lead to disappointment- at best late, usually less than advertised, sometimes nothing. And despite appearances, I'm not omniscient, so I don't know which KS projects will deliver. My issues with Spartan using kickstarter lie with KS and the specific project more than any general issues with Spartan.

38 minutes ago, RuleBritannia said:

Could we get someone from the design staff to do a preview instead?

Please. I do miss the old updates from Delboy. If you want to ask what support is, the days of regular new models with designer insight is pretty much the top tier of it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With most kickstarter projects they seem to be from smaller companies with a small portfolio (or just that item) whereas SG have a bigger rep and more "trust" (if that's the right word)

I don't pledge on KS, as I prefer to see an item in stock and available, rather than pay upfront and then wait (which happened with my Halo order)

Time will tell on this one, but you won't dissuade Spartan on this one - it is happening.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Agreed.  I'm not against it but...... I have yet to give anything to any crowdfunding source.  Maybe nothing has been worth the hassle. However if that's what it takes to get the ball rolling on a game I enjoy. So be it!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To me KS is like gambling - and I don't like gambling, only certainties.

I'm just surprised DE came out of nowhere as it's kind of taken the shine off the new DW campaign, scenery and potential new ships. If DE was to reappear next year, after DW had been revitalised, it probably wouldn't of copped that much vitriol.

I'm not against DE - I just want more DW and to give it some McLovin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've had good experiences with Kickstarter.  There was one that was delayed quite a bit, but it was an individual making models and having someone else produce them for him.  In the end I got the models and they were fantastic, it was just late.  I'm more than willing to accept that for a kickstater, at least from an individual.  I've been very happy with all of my others, getting what they promised pretty much when they said they would (some delays but nothing massive).

There have been a couple PC games I've done too, and granted two still haven't came out yet, but I knew going in that they were going to be 2+ years out and I was ok with that.

Although the only issue I have with Kickstarter right now is that my wife threatened to kill me if I did it any more.  But that is only kind of an issue because she said that I wouldn't be buying any new models from any source until I get everything I have painted, and at the rate I'm going that is going to be a while.

And that is probably part of it for me.  I've only ever kickstarted stuff that I'm interested in as a hobby.  I've got a lot of hobbies and if it takes a while for one board game to ship I've still got a lot of others to play.  Also at the time I had more free income (not being married when I did many of them), so I could much more easily justify putting some money out there and waiting months or even a year or two, before I got anything out of it.

As for what they are going to do, well this is what they said:

Quote

We’re now embracing Kickstarter as a way to accelerate our development efforts, to draw in new creative talent to create print materials and new models which take our game systems and grow them in the direction you want. And thanks to the data from our survey we know exactly what to create for you!

Accelerate development, bring in new talent to create print materials and models.

There are a few simple things we can get from that. 

First, people that do 3d CAD probably don't write rules or fluff, they probably don't create molds or create models from molds.  Chances are they are gamers so they can playtest and give ideas about rules, but "writing rules" is probably not in their job description.  The same can be said for the people creating the models from molds, and probably an administrative assistant of some sort (taking orders, etc), they may or may not have someone dedicated to packaging and shipping out product, they probably also aren't game designers.

We've heard a lot of complaints about products being pushed back, from all of the product lines.  My guess is that while creating models from molds is a skilled labor sort of job, a wide range of people could pick it up and be trained to do it.  I assume if they just needed more employees they would hire them, after all they are where the ideas become money and if the can produce more models they will make more money.  So my assumption here is that the bottleneck isn't the employees, it is the machinery they work with, I have no idea how much those machines cost, but my guess is that it is quite a lot.  Kickstarter will include funds to purchase more model making capacity.  This is also a universal purchase, it has benefits for all players across all product lines.

(Maybe the new DL models were pushed back because they simply didn't have the production time to get those made, keep up with normal order demand, and release new Halo models that are going to be selling better.  That sort of thing)

They get model renders up long before we ever see the models.  This makes be believe the CAD designers for the models themselves is not the bottleneck.  I have no idea what they use to go from CAD drawings to workable molds, that could either be a money issue or a highly skilled specialist employee.

The new print materials, I'm betting that is an employee, as well as probably some costs associated with making it.  I don't think Spartan has any writers, it doesn't seem like it.  They tell some reasonable stories but they just don't feel like what you would get from someone dedicated to writing as a hobby and job.

From the sounds of it when I started following Spartan, most of their development group was basically "friends" of the company.  I'm not sure how many actual developers they have in-house.  But it never hurts to have more for additional ideas and eyes on any given problem, as well as someone that can help with the initial playtesting.

Of course if they have very few employees and someone is answering phones and shipping orders while they are writing rules and someone else is making models while trying to CAD up new designs at the same time, well then it would be no wonder they are slow to get things done.

So as long as Spartan has a very clear direction for their kickstarter and I can see what they are doing with it, I would be happy to try and support it without my wife finding out...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've got no problem with Spartan Games using a kickstarter but again: who is the audience?

Fundamentally the problem isn't that specific rules or models are lacking from Dystopian Wars or any other game range (although I admit I would enjoy having more support and options for plenty of factions across all game lines). The problem is communication.

Spartan love to promise the world, they love to tell you next time will be better. And from the technical standpoint it is. I can compare the old 1.0 Japanese starter set models to the new Shadow Hunter ones and the difference is night and day, and it's not like the original models are **** either. However time and again we've heard x is coming, y release won't affect our schedule, z game is definitely a core release we do not plan to discontinue... And it's ultimately been lies.

I don't think it's malicious, deliberate attempts to obfuscate what's going on, however when mistakes are made Spartan generally don't update and communicate well and stick to the original line, doubling down on the mistake.

I can ***** and moan about more fluff as it's my passion but I'm starting to wonder who wants to actually read it outwith this tiny forum. Spartan has a terrible reputation online. A quick Google gives you the same complaints and jokes that everyone trots out. And Spartan does not communicate or have a presence on other forums or websites at all. For example:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/704748.page;jsessionid=111051E41F84DE712A1714BE85EC5932

We've got a front page thread on dakka complaining about Spartan. In the News and Rumours section. A few threads down there's people discussing how to find Halo model proxies because they don't like what Spartan is producing or how they operate.

These are the folks you need to convince. For all my bitching ultimately I'm still here trying to find ways to get Spartan to engage with me. Others just quietly walked away long ago. I don't know how you solve that now to be honest. I think it's with a Dystopian Legions relaunch or revamp (Not technically new game, getting support and attention in the spotlight, 35mm is still in standard wargaming comfort range, and if run right can become a stepping stone to other products) but I'm honestly concerned the damage is done, and Spartan will limp from new game or IP each time, attracting and shedding a player base until no one buys in any longer and it becomes unprofitable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Zond - I don't think Spartan have to convince those people whom find the time to create and maintain a dedicated complaint page. Essentially they are the noisy minority, much like every forum that has ever existed and like most groups they can never really be satisfied and find fault at most opportunities.

Ironically I would bet that the majority of SG's customers are not contributors to forums or have an overwhelming online presence. That's a conclusion made by the number of users on this site versus guesstimate sales.

In any cases - let's keep the suggestions for the gaming systems coming rather than turning another thread into a doom and gloom therapy group session, otherwise RichJones will have to get out of bed again and lock another thread :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It wasn't the announcement of the new game being on kickstarter that annoyed me. It was the fact that after 2 years, they still haven't released the "core" items that have been in the DW and DL rulebooks. If the national TACs, etc had been released, I would have scraped together what spare cash I had, and dived straight into the 3rd scale of the game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.