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Comments on the Kickstarter

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31 minutes ago, Sebenko said:

Perhaps the next rules update for DW/FS:A should lean in that direction. There does seem to be a degree of difference for difference's sake between the two.

Its OK for there to be some differentiation between Genre - for example, Point defense is something that wouldn't show up in Uncharted, and say the magic deck wouldn't show up in Dystopian.  But, honestly, Halo Fleet Battles should generally play the same as Firestorm Armada, to the point where I don't see a reason why you couldn't have the two games be mostly compatible (see hordes playing against warmachine).   Same thing with Halo Ground Battles and Plantefall. 

All of this is moot, though, if they can't keep up releases though for their core games.  If merging the core rules more helps them keep up a monthly release schedule where they release stuff for each core game several times per year, great!  Otherwise, leave those things like they are and focus on keeping the games alive and relevant.

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This is my personal view (so I have not got my 'staff' hat on) - as much as people are saying some very valid comments about bolstering the stuff already out I was looking forward to the 15mm kit for a variety of reasons:

  • There are hordes of people I know that would have bought into the Dys world already if there was a company level 15mm version - they find  6/10mm to impersonal and obviously 30mm to damn big. 
  • Kickstaters tend to attract new blood - the whole steampunk element would attract hordes of newbies to Spartan that don't even know that the company, let alone the game exists now. These would far outweigh the amount of people who are pissed with the idea and in that sense would widen the player and fan base - this would. most likely, have a knock on effect to the other areas of the 'Dys world' and therefore games. 
  • The conceptual work would feed through to adding to the other games and obviously these would be the link rules for setting up some awesome campaigns for moving from one level of the game to another - NEIL and I have always dreamt of a system where you could be playing on a BIG picture level and then 'zoom into' aspects and play them at a more detailed level - ending in this case at playing out action in skirmish level. 
  • The rules that I suspect the base concepts would draw on (HGC) are absolutely freekin awesome for this setting - I have been gaming for nearly 50 years and 15mm WWII gaming for a LONG time and have tried most (my friends would argue - every) set of rules out there. IMHO the ruleset is the best ever set for a fast moving, all inclusive game. 

For these reasons alone it would be a travesty for it not to happen.

Like I said, I am not in anyway trying to say 'forget all the whinging' etc - just wanted to add my 2p worth to the pot.

Rich J

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17 minutes ago, RichJones said:

This is my personal view (so I have not got my 'staff' hat on) - as much as people are saying some very valid comments about bolstering the stuff already out I was looking forward to the 15mm kit for a variety of reasons:

  • There are hordes of people I know that would have bought into the Dys world already if there was a company level 15mm version - they find  6/10mm to impersonal and obviously 30mm to damn big. 
  • Kickstaters tend to attract new blood - the whole steampunk element would attract hordes of newbies to Spartan that don't even know that the company, let alone the game exists now. These would far outweigh the amount of people who are pissed with the idea and in that sense would widen the player and fan base - this would. most likely, have a knock on effect to the other areas of the 'Dys world' and therefore games. 
  • The conceptual work would feed through to adding to the other games and obviously these would be the link rules for setting up some awesome campaigns for moving from one level of the game to another - NEIL and I have always dreamt of a system where you could be playing on a BIG picture level and then 'zoom into' aspects and play them at a more detailed level - ending in this case at playing out action in skirmish level. 
  • The rules that I suspect the base concepts would draw on (HGC) are absolutely freekin awesome for this setting - I have been gaming for nearly 50 years and 15mm WWII gaming for a LONG time and have tried most (my friends would argue - every) set of rules out there. IMHO the ruleset is the best ever set for a fast moving, all inclusive game. 

For these reasons alone it would be a travesty for it not to happen.

Like I said, I am not in anyway trying to say 'forget all the whinging' etc - just wanted to add my 2p worth to the pot.

Rich J

How long would you keep any of the "new blood" from a 15mm version without additional releases though?  6 to 12 months down the road when another shiney game concept hits and there have been no new releases, the new blood will move on to something else.  Same problem as all the other games :(

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1 hour ago, RichJones said:

Kickstaters tend to attract new blood - the whole steampunk element would attract hordes of newbies to Spartan that don't even know that the company, let alone the game exists now. These would far outweigh the amount of people who are pissed with the idea and in that sense would widen the player and fan base - this would. most likely, have a knock on effect to the other areas of the 'Dys world' and therefore games.

Yeah, as long as you manage to acquire new customers faster than you disappoint your old ones you're al right.

Fits the established modus operandi perfectly.

It's a dead end street though...

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Endgame said:

How long would you keep any of the "new blood" from a 15mm version without additional releases though?  6 to 12 months down the road when another shiney game concept hits and there have been no new releases, the new blood will move on to something else.  Same problem as all the other games :(

Like I said just my opinion - seen it work, I think it would rejuvenate the other Dys games if anything.

But non of us have any real proof either way. 

However, it seems Neil and co have listened and are, no doubt, plotting a way forward that will please. 

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I agree with much of the sentiment expressed here (and have completed my survey).

I don't think the majority of people have a problem with Spartan launching a new game per se, especially one set in an existing universe.  But people do have an issue with the sudden drop of support (as quantified by active posts on the forums, regular new releases and support material) that has occurred when Spartan focuses on a new game.  Had this kickstarter been announced when Spartan was in the middle of a published and achieved release schedule for its existing lines (say a new product every two months for each line and a new piece of support material on the alternate month), and it was clear that this schedule would continue for the immediate future, I suspect people would have been much more positive in their support, because their fears would have been allayed.

If maintaining a schedule like that, while creating a new game, is beyond the scope of a company of the size of Spartan, then I think you're hearing people say don't do anything new until you've grown the company to a larger size so that you can do this.    

Look, for example, at the new bloodbowl as an exercise in how to reassure an active fan base who had moved away from the company, win new customers and generate hype and excitement for a game prior to release.  There is a dedicated website, several videos, support materials downloads, previews, dedicated social media and an unboxing video.  All put together well before the game is released.  By demonstrating their commitment to the new game, while maintaining their current lines, before a single unit is sold, GW has a good chance at winning back a large number of past customers and creating many more, in a market rich with competitors.  I suspect this approach has been learned the hard way, on the basis of several 'splash' releases that didn't fulfil their potential (for example Dreadfleet).

Personally I'd be very interested in Dystopian Empires, but not if it comes at the expense of ongoing releases for current product lines and on the latter I think people are saying that actions speak louder than words.

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Exactly!

had the activities, release, and updates for existing games been steady through each new game introduction, I think the response to Dystopian Empires would be wholesale enthusiasm.  But the past tells us that the pie is being cut smaller rather than making the pie larger, and one new game will mean the end of another, not to mention the splitting of DW and FsA into two rules set.

 

my suggestion is to continue development of DE but don't release it until the existing games are made more complete or even whole, and when DE is release, the rules are well play tested and the model range complete for at least two years of releases, not just the splash and six months.

 

announcements should be treated as promises to deliver rather than ideas for consideration.

Tighten the products, productions, and commitments to your current customers rather than cycle them in favor of new ones.  Don't lose your customer loyalty as you are at risk of doing.

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5 hours ago, RichJones said:

 

  • Kickstaters tend to attract new blood - the whole steampunk element would attract hordes of newbies to Spartan that don't even know that the company, let alone the game exists now. These would far outweigh the amount of people who are pissed with the idea and in that sense would widen the player and fan base - this would. most likely, have a knock on effect to the other areas of the 'Dys world' and therefore games. 
  • The conceptual work would feed through to adding to the other games and obviously these would be the link rules for setting up some awesome campaigns for moving from one level of the game to another - NEIL and I have always dreamt of a system where you could be playing on a BIG picture level and then 'zoom into' aspects and play them at a more detailed level - ending in this case at playing out action in skirmish level.

 

Spartan is not going to run a successful kickstarter after their last hideous failure.  Between the general stigma of kickstarters delivering late, Halo's shipping problems, and their customers generally having zero trust in the company means this is the worst pathway for presenting any product.

As for setting up linkable campaigns, Spartan can keep dreaming because they have a losing track record.  They promised that same thing with DW and Legions but have produced nothing.  They promised it with FS:A and Planetfall and we are still waiting.  I see no sign of it being achieved with Halo.  So now their idea of getting it right is an entire new product line.  The vast majority of us will pass.

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Personally, I think that Legions in particular should be in a more "complete" state before another Dystopian World game is produced. I don't say this just because I want more Legions; the idea of Dystopian World games being interconnected surely only works if all seven of the Major Powers at the very least can be used at every "scale" of game.

In the same regard I would be concerned about Dystopian Empires becoming another "Kingdom of Britannia vs Prussian Empire, Federated States of America vs Empire of the Blazing Sun" game, never really growing beyond that.

As I said in my survey response, I think any Kickstarter project Spartan does now would have to have a very humble goal and be a fairly conservative initial proposal.

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I'm no DW player, but having a three-level gaming experience, like this D Wars / D Empires / D Legions system, has been a wet dream for me for more decenia than I like, so I know exactly what Neil is al excited about.

That doesn't mean I would go and play in the DW universe btw, because the DW universe simply isn't my cup of tea.

The Elephant in the room here is that the introduction of part three of the trilogy comes after part two got effectively side tracked and the original volume has seen better days attention wise.

 

I think Spartan games was overstretched with UCS, FA, and DW already.

And now they have killed of UCS, and taken on five more games; Legions, Planetfall, Taskforce, Halo Fleet Battles, and Halo Ground Command, a recipe for disaster if there ever was one.

And then, in this immense lack of support for their current games hole they are in, they start talking about Dystopian Empires, yet another game.

No wonder the Spartan customer base got a little upset…

 

Imo they should never have gotten into Halo, because it will only multiply an already dissatisfied customer base.

They should have kept to their guns instead; re-launched UCS, and consolidated those other two games.

And you don't need three different miniatures scales to have a three-level gaming experience btw.

With the right rules you can have both fleet action AND small scale fleet combat with the same miniatures/scenery, and with the right rules you can also have both tactical level and skirmish ground combat with the same miniature/scenery.

And that would have been a more sane approach for a small company.

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I keep thinking about this and it just hit me why the entire idea of project disgusts me.

First, we finally feel that Spartan is listening and things are running again.  We have some blog posts that don't involve Halo.

Second, we have renders of new ships and a building campaign.  Could they, could Spartan actually come up with something that ties together Wars and Legions like they promised.  I mean you can't really tie it in that well because three of the main powers basically don't exist in Legions but whatever.  The Frontline Despatches 2 blog even mentioned new add on rules for Legions so something is coming.

Finally, Dystopian Empires.  This product is so unannounced, strange, and completely out of left field that I hated it before I could even pinpoint why.  It has nothing to do with anything else and we get zero information other than 'NEW SHINY'.  Is this replacing Legions?  Does this have anything to do with the Africa campaign?  I'm glad I play Britannia and everything includes me but the ally and merc players might want to play as well - are you just going to leave them in the cold? 

 

Spartan Games: You. Have. Limited. Manpower.  Start acting like it.  A lot of people hate on GW for starting up numerous specialty games and then dropping support.  You are traveling down the exact same path.  You have failed to support the games you already have even after you assured us that Halo would not disrupt that support.  Stop creating more.

Just to highlight a lack of planning when it comes to your releases: do you have anything major for the holiday?  I'm looking and your new flagship game seems as dead in the water as everything else during the busy sales period.  No big releases for November or December?  I hope you were not betting on Empires to be your big winter hype release.

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I know Im not going to drop cash on starter sets and then wait 2 years with silence and find my game has been changed into something else. There alot of existing issues with the line so why create more?  When these issues are dealt with then a bold move forward.

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Please remember that there is a survey up and being closely watched/monitored where the way forward can be suggested...

Pages of vitriolic posts are probably not going to help - please, please do the survey and then let's leave the company forums for more positive issues.

Don't want to shut the thread off to be honest but it is getting a bit 'burn the witch' in tone...

Anyway - please let your concerns be known by the survey, the Spartan crew are very interested - also remember, as lots of you point out, it is a smallish crew of people who are very passionate about the games they produce, and want to produce.

 

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Mate, for an internet discussion about something a lot of the participants feel quite strongly about, this is on par with a high society dinner in terms of politeness.

And what positive issues are there to talk about? DW has been floundering for over a year, we've run out of things to discuss beyond how we think the game is failing.

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13 minutes ago, Sebenko said:

Mate, for an internet discussion about something a lot of the participants feel quite strongly about, this is on par with a high society dinner in terms of politeness.

That is true which is why it should stay that way :)

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49 minutes ago, RichJones said:

That is true which is why it should stay that way :)

You don't seem to be aware this has been brewing for years.

And it has been addressed by forum members over and over during those years, to no avail.

So we actually can't scream hard enough here to get the point across.

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28 minutes ago, Frans said:

You don't seem to be aware this has been brewing for years.

And it has been addressed by forum members over and over during those years, to no avail.

So we actually can't scream hard enough here to get the point across.

Obviously I am aware it has been brewing for years, please do not be condescending  - point is the screaming seems to have been listened to. Not saying the end result will be a happy one for all but for the time being it seems to be being listened to. So no need for it to get any worse. 

Also be what may this is the company forum and having a voice is one thing - going off about how bad they are doing may well be another and not exactly great for Spartan. Most companies would have stopped this thread already if it was on their official forum, nor would most companies really care enough to put out a survey and be pro-active with getting feedback. 

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