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2 Apollos or 1 Titan?

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I was just poking at the various T1 choices available.  I kitted out a titan and realized that after upgrades I had essentially spent as many points on it as a pair of naked Apollos.  For that cost I pickup a little bit of firepower, some shields, and a higher CR, but I lose total HP and the second activation.  Any thoughts?  Personally, I'm pretty sure the pair of Battleships will be the better option most of the time, but it seems worth asking.

In either case, both ships have an interesting linked possibility when upgraded with beams.  The Turreted beams linked with the Nuke fixed fore at 8" to 10" actually pack a pretty good punch, but also misses out on the beam coherence effect.  Is the loss of the rerolls worth the total AD throw of 17 AD on the Apollo or 19AD on the Titan?

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on the titan I would say it's not worth it, I would take a couple shots of 10 or 12 over the linked up shot almost every time (unless say, your shooting at the omnidyne dreadnought with 4 shields)  f your shooting at tier 2, the advantage of NOT linking is obvious, but even other tier 1's yes 17 is likely to crit, but 12 or 10, isn't too far off the possibility either :) but now you have a chance to crit twice, or crit once and do one damage. even if one shot totally whiffs, you still have a second chance to stick them, I would only link the titan once it's taken some damage, and lost some AD

with the appollos this is less clear, ideally I would try to position so I can throw the 12 dice turret at a tier 1, and the port starboard at a tier 2 or 3. again I would only link if you have a really tanky tier 1, or if there isn't anything else to shoot at, more dice couldn't hurt :) (the 8 or 9 on it's own not a likely canidate for damage on a tier 1, so it's probably worth linking, however if you are undamaged I've seen even 6 AD do incredible things :) )

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As for Apollo vs Titan, there is one clear advantage that the Titan has: It's just about the safest admiral bunker in the entire fleet, bar maaaybe a properly-upgraded Tyrant, and a large part of the Tyrant's survivability edge would be that it doesn't need to close to RB1 for best effect (and that it will have less of a giant flashing neon sign saying SHOOT ME! on it).

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20 minutes ago, RecklessPrudence said:

As for Apollo vs Titan, there is one clear advantage that the Titan has: It's just about the safest admiral bunker in the entire fleet, bar maaaybe a properly-upgraded Tyrant, and a large part of the Tyrant's survivability edge would be that it doesn't need to close to RB1 for best effect (and that it will have less of a giant flashing neon sign saying SHOOT ME! on it).

If someone is shooting the Titan, I think you've got things going the way you want them to, don't you?  A bunch of shots at the most durable ship in your fleet is way better than having your Cruisers knocked off one by one.

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Durable, to a point. The Titan is a tough ship, but it is not invulnerable. If the enemy focuses their firepower on your Dreadnought Flagship, then it will likely die. It may well die quickly depending on what is shooting at it (Dindrenzi cruisers, battle cruisers, battleships and the dreadnought are surefire bets at cracking through a Titan, as are quite a few heavy cruiser and large capital squadrons in other fleets). Titan also has a fairly low Damage Rating of 6. It can be plinked down by multiple, smaller attacks. Of course, if the Titan is drawing the majority of fire from the enemy, then it may well be the case that the rest of the fleet is left alone to do their own thing. It depends on how target fixated the enemy player is. 

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I think I'm just echoing the other members here, but this is my two cents.

 

I feel like the advantage of a Titan lies almost entirely within how much Battle Log you are willing to risk losing combined with how high a priority the enemy commander will rate your T1 models.  The Titan consolidates your fleet point eggs into one basket, but at the same time the margin of BL loss is barely increased over a single Apollo.  Having both Apollo models blown up seems like a game gone wrong, and it will definitely pay out BL consummate with that loss.  Even severely damaging an Apollo and destroying the other will at least break even with a Titan's BL swing, unless the Admiral's model was the one sunk.

 

The Titan's overall problem though is taking out both Apollo models is still a lot of work, even with a baseline model's defense, and they can soak a lot of enemy activations trying to deal with both threats.  Dealing with only one model still leaves the other rampaging through your fleet, so this is much more intimidating overall than a Titan, in my mind.  Also Apollo innately have weapon shielding so there is an effect something like reverse double degradation in play with two models.  With two Apollo on the board the threat that one model will engage effectively into knife fighting range without shunting is much higher.

Against conventional Apollo practice, it may serve the fleet best to not shunt deploy with either Apollo model.  Any fire directed their way is not taken by the remainder of the fleet.  With two naturally weapon shielded Apollo models closing the gap, well, that's a pain train which is hard to cripple or ignore for the enemy fleet.

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Naked Apollos leave a lot to be desired and are a heck of a lot easier to deal with than a upgraded Titan. You'd be surprised how much more damage your opponent can deal to 6/10 2 Shields compared to 6/12 4 Shields (5 with Sector Shielding).  Nobody plinks an Titan to death the way you do on shieldless Dindrenzi cruisers.

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Individually I can see that, but what fleet composition easily destroys two Apollo, while struggling instead when dealing with a Titan?  This is only a reasonable comparison because the price of two Apollo is 340 fleet points when bare, while the specified Titan will run a minimum of 315.  Granted giving the Apollo models upgrades quickly increases the points gap; but when you have two models upgraded the overall gains can become equally significant.  Really though it depends quite a lot on your shield die rolls.

In a way similar to the Teuton's upgrades, bringing two Apollo also evens out the gambler's luck when it comes to shield die results.  Also the bait is harder to ignore when trying to get the enemy to focus on either, or both, Apollo models instead of a Titan.  Throw Perseus in the mix as an example and you've got a range of squadrons that need killing before they rack up effective damage for cost, and the pressure on fleet activation becomes more interesting.

Yes, Apollo give up BL easier than a Titan, but that's the Titan's only saving grace in my eyes.  It's not a bad ship, but it isn't the most dangerous thing in the water, while also singular, and stuck with being slow and/or short ranged.  Being tough to beat and giving up less battle log for the points invested is, nice?  However, destroying the enemy fleet is what wins fights, and the Titan doesn't impress upon me a particular dominance in this role over the alternatives.

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Dual Apollos, sacrifice somewhere else if you can for some basic Shield and either PD or Beam upgrades.  Our local meta's Terran players hardly put the Titan on the board anymore.  (I think they're useless in this edition and never field it, and the other two are sick of me constantly blowing them up by Turn 2).

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Like everything else, it depends on th rest of your fleet. The Titan really pays off when it draws a lot of enemy firepower and doesn't take any damage, but it's so tough, who's going to bother shooting it?

If the rest of the fleet is basically hiding behind Terrain (Pilgrims and Harpoons), Untargetable, (Destroyers with Hidden Killer), or in Reserves (Missionaries and Templars), then the Titan might be the only viable target for a few turns.  

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Here is the list 1000 point list that I was working on that brought up the question:

Titan 290
+1 Shield 15
Beams 15
Sector Shielding 10
+1 Mv 5
335

3x Sentinel w/ Beams and +1 HP 195
Aegis 50
245

3x Perseus 40
Turrets Free
120

3x Perseus 40
Turrets Free
120

4x Missionary 100

4x Wayfarer 80

It doesn't take a lot of work to swap that titan into 2 Apollos, which increases the total activation count and provides more threats.  If I cut the +1 HP on the Sentinels and drop the Titan, I can get this layout on the BBs:

Razorthorn 170
+1 Mv 5
+2 PD 5
+Nukes Free
175

Apollo 170
+Beams 10
+2 PD 5
+Nukes Free
185

As Ryjak said, I think the Titan is very fleet dependent.  With this ship layout, I think the double BB makes sense, while with a different layout, the Titan makes more sense.

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Interesting list, my only concern would be about dealing with frigates and corvettes.  While fleet composition should be the primary concern, dealing with whatever scenario the fleet will end up in is also a concern.  I'd consider the scenario rules you play with on a normal basis and think about how you would manage the different fleets.  Ambush and Escalating Engagement are two potentially good examples where dual Apollos can give you more bang for your buck given the scenario rules.

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