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Preferred Zenian League Core - Ba'Kash or Raptor?

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I have a good selection of Terran ships, and for any game I play I love to have 2 or 3 different factions.  Looking through the various alliance and league ships, by far my favorites are Ba'Kash and Works Raptor. 

If I were to give Zenian League a go, which makes the better core between Ba'Kash and Works Raptor?  Ba'Kash seem a little more well developed, but it seems like the combination of Raptor Assault Carrier, Torp Crusiers, and corvettes would be perfect options for a long range and sneaky core than can be expanded by Ba'Kash the close range ships.  

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I've played many games against pure Ba'kash. I definitely don't think any of their ships are bad. The cruisers are inexpensive for a decent ship, the heavy cruisers a bit more expensive for a solid painful ship and the frigates are real good. The player I run against shunts in a LOT of his stuff every game, almost as much as he possibly can. The one thing I really see hurting him the most is shunting in to take out something in a mildly isolated area and then not being able to get his squadron back into the rest of the game quick enough once he deals with it. Also be very aware of when you want to open and close your front. There have been times he had a reasonable shot available, but would get unloaded on after and it may or may not be the best choice to take the shot vs how much and what was coming back on him. Last thought, I never see them as an easy win(cough stl traders cough) and seems like a solid enough fleet. 

As far as Works Raptors, I've never seen them run as anything but allies and sitting in/behind terrain shooting torps and doing nothing else. They seem like they could be a reasonably fun fleet, but no one around me has them aside from a couple ships. 

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Both are specialized fleets with unique play styles.  Ba'Kash are fairly straight-forward; their nuance comes from understanding game tempo and full attack timing.

Works Raptor are a bit trickier, as they have a lot of dirty tricks, like a high DR + Difficult Target, Stealth Systems, and lots of Torpedoes.  Generally, they want to spend the first few turns lobbing Torps from beyond 20", then instantaneously be right on top to launch Special Forces Assaults.  This transition from keep-away to all-out assault is difficult to learn, but devestating when performed correctly.

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I only see Works Raptos allied with Directorate, they have good ships but really "weaks" they are specialist, far pew pew and really close assaults but in mid-short range they are epicly weak.
Ba'Kash are solid rocks, and have a good number of pew pew, personally I think you can play it alone more easy than Works Raptors.
The both are good but like Ryjak says they have uniques styles.

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I'm definitely not very interested in playing a full fleet of one thing or another.  For Zenian League, I'll want to mix and match ships, I just need to pick a core to pull T1, T2 and T3.  For example, do I run a Ba'Kash Battle Carrier, Cruiser Squadron and frigates, and supplement with Works Raptor Cruisers and battle cruisers?  Do I pull T1, T2, and T3 from WR and then add Ba'Kash heavy cruisers? 

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Works raptor look like a great fun fleet, but they end up in the same place as a lot of fleets, being shut down by interceptor spam. Getting in close to use their beams puts them in a risky position, and the torps and boarding get screwed by interceptors. I would love to try them in an interceptor free environment.

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From my experience playing against both:

The Ba'Kash has a super solid core. But they suffer from "sameness" when fielded as a full fleet. Works Raptor has some cool toys, but I personally think they work better as toys for other fleets. I would say you can't go wrong fielding a Ba'Kash core and then Works Raptor specialists. The Ba'Kash can do the brawling while Works Raptor cause havoc. On the other hand a Works Raptor core with Ba'Kash has more places where it might falter. You'll have less mass of brawling-ness and with the sneaky Works Raptor toys it will be easier and more appealing for your opponent to just target your Ba'Kash elements. This could potentially make it much easier to hamstring half of your fleet.

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I will say as a Ba'Kash player, you will usually be outnumbered by other Tier 1s and your admiral's ship likes to be in the thick of things, which can be pretty risky. On the plus side, you can find the old metal Ba'Kash frigates if you need more to move up into a grand fleet, I'm not sure if WR ever had a blister of their tier 3.

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I would also go with Ba'kash core. I have WR and they are so torpedo oriented it's very easy to counter them during the initial turns and that can be very frustrating. As allies their ships are great though.

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At the moment, the real difficulty with all Support Fleets is obtaining the models for 2x Tier 3 Choices required for Battle Fleets.  Unless you can find Frigates on eBay or similar, you either have to order the Frigates directly from SG, or use proxies.

Another option is to buy two from Fleet boxes, but you really don't want that many Ba'Kash Destroyers.

The best solution would be if Support fleets did not have the requirement for 2x Tier 3.  They should instead have rules encouraging mixed faction fleets.  Then you could buy two patrol fleet boxes from two different factions and be set.

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It cost me quite a bit to get a Grand Fleet of Kedorian. You end up with quite a bit more of some things than you need, and not enough of others. That's a bad example, because they are not a very fleshed out fleet, but the point remains. Ordering single models tends to be extremely cost ineffective too, for me at least, due to shipping from UK to US. 

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On 8/20/2016 at 7:47 AM, Ryjak said:

At the moment, the real difficulty with all Support Fleets is obtaining the models for 2x Tier 3 Choices required for Battle Fleets.  Unless you can find Frigates on eBay or similar, you either have to order the Frigates directly from SG, or use proxies.

Another option is to buy two from Fleet boxes, but you really don't want that many Ba'Kash Destroyers.

The best solution would be if Support fleets did not have the requirement for 2x Tier 3.  They should instead have rules encouraging mixed faction fleets.  Then you could buy two patrol fleet boxes from two different factions and be set.

Agreed on not wanting that many destroyers, and double agree on a reduction on the core requirements for alliance fleets.  It would be fantastic to just have to field 1 T1, 1 T2, and 1 T3 from the core fleet (though you would have to still fill the minimum fleet construction allocations).  That means any of the patrol fleets could fit the core requirements.  If necessary, there could even be a requirement that any category cannot exceed the number of choices from the Core fleet.  For example:

You are running a Ba'Kash core.  If you want to run 1 squad of RSN cruisers and 1 Squad of RSN Heavy cruisers, you would have to bring 2 Ba'K T2s.  But if you want to bring 1 Works Rapotr T2, 1 Ba'kash T2, and one RSN T2, that would be fine.  

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On 8/22/2016 at 3:58 PM, Misterbucket said:

I like that cannot exceed idea. That seems like a very interesting way to handle it. Maybe make it cannot exceed in selections and points? or still require the 50% points but selections cannot exceed. Not sure, but I like the overall idea. 

I think you would just want to keep it as simple as possible.  Overall, taking 1 from each tier is essentially most of a patrol fleet, so you won't be abusing much of anything there.  In a Battle fleet, really all we're saying is that the second required T3 can be from a different fleet.  Really, a 2000 point Grand Fleets is where you might get some abuse where you only take ~550 points of your core fleet and 1450 points of other fleets, but you would still need to fill the minimums.  

Is there some abuse I'm not thinking of?

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Well, I was more so thinking, it would mean I can't take an anarchist ONLY as a directorate T1 and then an omnidyne dread as my second t1 in a grand fleet, because the selections are 1 to 1 but the points are far higher for the omnidyne. So in each tier the allied points going toward compulsory can't exceed the base fleet. Or something like I need 3 T3's so i take 2 2 man squadrons of liquidators intending to regroup and then 1 squadron of omnidyne light cruisers. So 80 total even for 2 selections vs 140 or whatever it is for 1 compulsory ally.  I guess, really, it probably doesn't matter a lot. I'd just like to see more variety. I'm sitting on so many fleets, and once you get the minimum stuff out of the way, it seems there's not much left for even a natural ally. 

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