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Ian

First battle with new relthoza rules

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Hi there everyone, I have just had my first battle with the new relthoza rules..

Reducing most ranges to 20" is hard to roll with if you lose the scout move initiative you are mostly stuck on the base line.

Also the new rules seem to have removed assault vehicle from our drop pods??? 

I am joining the forums because its a heavy hit all the new rules especially with having to deal with the directorate Lev with range 20" weapons

Help much needed if you guys and girls can :)

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I think most people agree Relthoza got kicked in the teeth a little too hard. Some will say they were just too good before and are just fine now. I think a small nerf would have been fine, but Spartan went for the big nerf bat forcing a smaller number of strategic options. The Relthoza currently suffers from poor internal balance.

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I played against Relthoza a few times since their nerf, and they are still very good. It is just that they are now in line with the 5 other factions, instead of crushing them each game :) But clearly, their playstyle has changed. I would say it is funnier than before. Sitting back and 3+ shooting things without doing nothing else isn't fun for anyone, except if all you're interested in is winning.

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On 7/30/2016 at 9:41 AM, Ian said:

Hi there everyone, I have just had my first battle with the new relthoza rules..

Reducing most ranges to 20" is hard to roll with if you lose the scout move initiative you are mostly stuck on the base line.

Also the new rules seem to have removed assault vehicle from our drop pods??? 

I am joining the forums because its a heavy hit all the new rules especially with having to deal with the directorate Lev with range 20" weapons

Help much needed if you guys and girls can :)

Generally, if you play by the rules in the book, you're going to die horribly unless your opponent makes errors you can capitalize on. I don't know any primary Relthoza player who still plays them.

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On 15/08/2016 at 11:21 PM, DSW said:

Generally, if you play by the rules in the book, you're going to die horribly unless your opponent makes errors you can capitalize on. I don't know any primary Relthoza player who still plays them.

That's just wrong and whiny...

Relthoza aren't OP anymore, some units are less interesting to play (just like in the other factions...) but they're still very capable and are now more or less in line with the rest. All you have to do is to adapt your way of playing instead of just spamming drop pods and tank hunters.

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On 8/20/2016 at 4:59 PM, child9 said:

That's just wrong and whiny...

Relthoza aren't OP anymore, some units are less interesting to play (just like in the other factions...) but they're still very capable and are now more or less in line with the rest. All you have to do is to adapt your way of playing instead of just spamming drop pods and tank hunters.

That's just arrogant and insulting.

You have already made it clear you are unwilling to listen to, or be reasonable with, anyone who dislikes the changes made. You frequently push into insulting territory and don't even bother to listen to the how or why of it. 

 

You are not helping.

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The Relth took a big nerfing in the latest rule set. Did they need one? It's pretty much a given that they did. Was it an overcorrection? Probably. Will it be rebalanced again later? Based on the past history of Spartan in general and the Dindrenzi Nyx in particular, I would say almost certainly. 

The short effective ranges of our base units hurts, especially against opponents with lots of hover vehicles. But there are ways around it. A recon helix , or even two, of Caramis and Jamriss are almost necessities. Our heavy infantry pack enough punch to take down things bigger than they are, and the pods can deliver them down field (although losing Assault Vehicle sucks). The Caramis ignore the To Hit penalty of hover vehicles, and of course can zero in the drop site markers. Opening with the recon helix can put some opponents on the defensive and give you some breathing room. Similarly, a Javi command spire and some turrets arriving in your backfield is something you have to answer, and that's before the Salamas come out to wreck things! 

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12 hours ago, DSW said:

That's just arrogant and insulting.

You have already made it clear you are unwilling to listen to, or be reasonable with, anyone who dislikes the changes made. You frequently push into insulting territory and don't even bother to listen to the how or why of it. 

 

You are not helping.

There is nothing arrogant and insulting in my message, I strongly suggest you to read it again.

YOU aren't helping by just saying "Relthoza can't win a game, nobody play them anymore". Both those claims are wrong, end of story. Relthoza are perfectly able to win against any other faction, this is just not an auto-win like before.

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On 8/24/2016 at 8:39 PM, knightperson said:

The Relth took a big nerfing in the latest rule set. Did they need one? It's pretty much a given that they did. Was it an overcorrection? Probably. Will it be rebalanced again later? Based on the past history of Spartan in general and the Dindrenzi Nyx in particular, I would say almost certainly. 

The short effective ranges of our base units hurts, especially against opponents with lots of hover vehicles. But there are ways around it. A recon helix , or even two, of Caramis and Jamriss are almost necessities. Our heavy infantry pack enough punch to take down things bigger than they are, and the pods can deliver them down field (although losing Assault Vehicle sucks). The Caramis ignore the To Hit penalty of hover vehicles, and of course can zero in the drop site markers. Opening with the recon helix can put some opponents on the defensive and give you some breathing room. Similarly, a Javi command spire and some turrets arriving in your backfield is something you have to answer, and that's before the Salamas come out to wreck things! 

 

Yeah, that's one of the biggest gripes we have in our group -- That you *must* do a thing, instead of building the force you want, if you want any hope of not getting roflstomped. The other factions still have a good deal of flexibility in group design with viable results.

The biggest issue is that the nerfing wasn't just a nerfing, but a near-rewrite of the whole faction playstyle into a completely different zone, which the mechanics of the game make very hostile to the faction design. 

That they needed adjustment isn't in dispute -- the manner of adjustment is what's made us drop them as a faction. I suppose if someone started fresh they wouldn't have that ghost hanging over the faction, but the inherent disadvantage imposed on them by the game mechanics and faction design will make them one of the most difficult to play.

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I bought Relthoza army from one guy who quited game, and added it to Core helix i already had for year or so and i was very surprised with changes. What hit me most was gamewide lowering of nexus designator range and lose of assault vehicle MAR on Spires. (and also heavy infantry nerf, to hard in my opinion).

 

Seriously guys, how do you handle situation with skydrops? You have no assault vehicles, and more points you invest in these units, the bigger activation advantage enemy has. And as long he maintains activation advatage, he will nuke every spire before infantry disembarsk (due to low DR, no assault vehicle and no cloaking).

What needs tweak is DR of spires (both spires at least +1 +1 +1) and cloaking. Perhaps longer range of designator on Varic(?) (the support walker) and that is imho just miimum.

The heavy aurelia cannons on heavy helix command have lower AD and lower range than normal aurelia, and that is just laughtable.

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Pepsin,

 

Sorry for the delay. As you may have guessed, some of us who played that force no longer do. The only way to deliver our skydropped infantry to capture points is to clear the points or capitalize on enemy mistakes or force them to shoot something else. Even then, they really aren't worth much.

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On 10. 10. 2016 at 8:23 PM, DSW said:

Pepsin,

 

Sorry for the delay. As you may have guessed, some of us who played that force no longer do. The only way to deliver our skydropped infantry to capture points is to clear the points or capitalize on enemy mistakes or force them to shoot something else. Even then, they really aren't worth much.

Hi, Thank you for the answer. It is as i feared then. Lets hope for some rebalance in near future....

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I've played most of my Planetfall matches against Relthoza. I still think they are though opponents even with all the nerf. I understand that it is never nice to have your units nerved, but Relthoza were a bit to good at everything. 

On your drop troops, I've only have a single instance in which I've managed to destroy a common drop pod before the infantry got out so I think that's fairly balanced. It does give you a threat to long range shooters because they usually have bad CQB stats thus causing your opponent to hold back an infantry or light armour unit to protect these units from drops.

on the ordinary infantry, yes they are not that great, but you can bring lots and lots of them. I think you need to pick your targets a bit more carefully now, but its still a great tool to have.

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On 15. 10. 2016 at 10:42 PM, Nicius said:

I've played most of my Planetfall matches against Relthoza. I still think they are though opponents even with all the nerf. I understand that it is never nice to have your units nerved, but Relthoza were a bit to good at everything. 

On your drop troops, I've only have a single instance in which I've managed to destroy a common drop pod before the infantry got out so I think that's fairly balanced. It does give you a threat to long range shooters because they usually have bad CQB stats thus causing your opponent to hold back an infantry or light armour unit to protect these units from drops.

on the ordinary infantry, yes they are not that great, but you can bring lots and lots of them. I think you need to pick your targets a bit more carefully now, but its still a great tool to have.

I really don't think so. I play terrans as my primmary army and copmared to them, relthoza are definitely weaker. The problem with drop troops is that you need to have activation advantage to use them, and more you have them, the lesser is your activation advantage. I wouldnt have problem with them ifthey had any chance to survive in their fragile transport, but they don't stand a chance. Because transports are so fragile, you get lot of exceeding dmg loose half of your infantry and as bonus, activation token....

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I have never played terran or played against terran (our meta is small..) However, Relthoza drop troops are still useful in my opinion. They might not be as effective as normal infantry, but I still think they have their uses. Especially when boosted by the different nodes. 

Getting an activation advantage is not quite as big a deal in Planetfall as it is in for example Dystopian Wars. You can still get an advantage by dropping units near unactivated helices which can't respond at that time.

Besides the less effective infantry, Relthoza have more then enough good to very good options to deal with most threats. And those drop pods give you the option of threatening the back line right from the start. I think you just need to adjust your tactics and get used to how the Relthoza play right now. I've found my Planetfall games against Relthoza to be much more of a joy since the nerf, because now I actually stand a chance and the Relthoza player has to actually move or make tactical choices instead of placing long range shots.

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1 hour ago, Nicius said:

...

Nerf of long range weapons is very good balancing. I fully agree with that (however heavy aurelia cannon should propably be renamed as it has worse stats than normal aurelia), but those transports deffinitely need higher DR and cloaking..... 

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I always considered the drop troops to be the Relthoza version of Artillery.  They drop in, run out, and CQB something for some damag, and generally get mauled in return.  If you happen to have enough live through the activation, you can try again next turn, but generally they're not very scary after the first round of combat.  With the nerf to Assault Vehicle and reduced Target Designator range, they no longer reliably expand the reach of your forces and your placement is largely dictated by what your opponent is activating.  If they have deployed such that helixes are intermingled (which they should for just this issue), then there is no "deploy near something that can't activate" because they'll *always* have something in range to activate unless it's the end of the round and everything has gone (not that that helps either, since you'll be behind on activations on the board).  While the nerf was certainly consistent with the death-to-LR-spiders that Spartan decided on, it renders the troops largely useless at anything other than dropping into an uncontested objective or going after an unsupported enemy unit (and if they're pushing units that far away from fire support they deserve what they get).  I tried them in the new configuration multiple times, and was almost always sorry I had brought anything more than a single drop squad to rush an objective.  Having more (and more reliable) firepower on the board was always the superior choice.  Going to Heavy Infantry does nothing to change this paradigm other than tying up even more points for a unit that will again probably maul a single enemy and then take something else with them when they get CQB'd the second time.

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I've had to deal with multiple drop pods dropping on my back line regularly. Last game they prevented that a heavy transport skiff with a full unit of heavy infantry reached the Relthozan gun line. While the heavy transportskiff and the sorylian heavy infantry murdered multiple Relthozan infantry squads, this did cause me trouble because I was missing one of my hard hitters up front, freeing up Relthozan guns to shoot at my Bor'Ka's (which then died).

So while they are not the most effective combat troops anymore, they are very good at causing disruption and tying up important units. A full infantry squad will do damage to most large vehicles if left unchecked, so I have to dedicate resources to deal with them. The most efficient way of doing so is ether with my own infantry (which I want up front killing Relthoza heavies and capturing objectives) or light tanks (also wanted for capturing objectives or flanking).

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On 20. 10. 2016 at 7:38 AM, Nicius said:

I've had to deal with multiple drop pods dropping on my back line regularly. Last game they prevented that a heavy transport skiff with a full unit of heavy infantry reached the Relthozan gun line. While the heavy transportskiff and the sorylian heavy infantry murdered multiple Relthozan infantry squads, this did cause me trouble because I was missing one of my hard hitters up front, freeing up Relthozan guns to shoot at my Bor'Ka's (which then died).

So while they are not the most effective combat troops anymore, they are very good at causing disruption and tying up important units. A full infantry squad will do damage to most large vehicles if left unchecked, so I have to dedicate resources to deal with them. The most efficient way of doing so is ether with my own infantry (which I want up front killing Relthoza heavies and capturing objectives) or light tanks (also wanted for capturing objectives or flanking).

Seriously, do you consider delay gained from tactics droping-near-enemy-to-force-him-to-kill-me worth of Tactical value of both transport and infantry? Not to mention point cost?

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Drop pods have no or losy TV so are never priority targets.

 

If those drop pods tie up a heavy infantry unit and its transport that  otherwise woukd have wreaked havoc in Relthozan lines. Then yes it is worth it.

I'm not saying they're Nyx, but they still have their uses. I think everybody is to caught up in the aftermath of the nerf to see that tough. Relthoza are still tough opponents even after the nerf. They're now beatable which is good in a game.

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8 hours ago, Nicius said:

Drop pods have no or losy TV so are never priority targets.

 

If those drop pods tie up a heavy infantry unit and its transport that  otherwise woukd have wreaked havoc in Relthozan lines. Then yes it is worth it.

I'm not saying they're Nyx, but they still have their uses. I think everybody is to caught up in the aftermath of the nerf to see that tough. Relthoza are still tough opponents even after the nerf. They're now beatable which is good in a game.

The drop pods have no TV, but they are still priority targets. If you can kill one before the guys get out then the infantry inside don't get to activate that turn. Even if you can't kill it in one round, the drop pods provide drone nexus, and Relthoza infantry, particularly Jabri, without drone nexus SUCK! An infantry-heavy Relthoza list might have the "backup drone nexus" of the command spire, which is much harder to destroy, but if it's not present you can fairly effectively nerf the CQB and morale of the infantry by getting rid of the pods. 

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4 hours ago, knightperson said:

The drop pods have no TV, but they are still priority targets. If you can kill one before the guys get out then the infantry inside don't get to activate that turn. Even if you can't kill it in one round, the drop pods provide drone nexus, and Relthoza infantry, particularly Jabri, without drone nexus SUCK! An infantry-heavy Relthoza list might have the "backup drone nexus" of the command spire, which is much harder to destroy, but if it's not present you can fairly effectively nerf the CQB and morale of the infantry by getting rid of the pods. 

You can usually drop another nexust there, that is an issue but smaller of two, but combination of facts that infantry gets activation marker AND any exceeding hits AND transport is ultra-fragile, is what makes them useless.

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